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Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Sport. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 28.1.(a)(1) on page 140 of the Estimates book.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I guess to start off I just want to see if the minister has got some information for me. Maybe he can go through that on the record and provide me with the copies that he has managed to get so far.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): I have not had as much time to devote to this as I would have liked in the however many hours we have had since yesterday, but the preliminary information I have is this. Out of the four agreements that the member asked for, I will be tabling two of them today. The information I have been provided as of today is, first of all, on the issue of the Bid City Agreement that the member asked about, dated December 5, 1992. I am told it is a private contract among the Canadian Olympic Association, the 1999 Pan-American Games Bid Committee, and the City of Winnipeg and, as such, is not available for distribution to the public. I have not had an opportunity to pursue that any further at this stage. So that is the preliminary feedback I have received.

The second one is the issue of the co-operation agreement dated July 31, 1994. That agreement I am prepared to table today. I will be tabling one of the agreements. I gather it is an agreement that has been entered into with each of the 42 national Olympic committees of North and South America. I will table a copy of one such agreement here today.

The third request was the Host City Agreement, dated February 20, 1995. Again, I am told, it is a private contract among Canadian Olympic Associations, City of Winnipeg, and the host society and contains a confidentiality clause. As such, it is not available for distribution to the public. The fourth agreement is the funding agreement. I will be tabling a copy of that agreement.

When the member looks at the funding agreement, the member will note under Section 8.2 of the funding partners agreement, it provides that Canada, Manitoba, and Winnipeg shall not be responsible for any Games deficits, which was a question that the member asked yesterday.

I have one copy of each, but I would not mind running, if we can get an additional copy of it run right away.

I think the member also asked me yesterday about the business plan, the overall budget. The information I have is that the business plan remains balanced at the same amount $140,583,317. I am told that there have been some transfers between divisions, but the overall budget for the Games remains at the same overall level.

I am also tabling the April/May Partners report, which I am anticipating was the progress report that the member was asking about. It is the most current one I have. It is indicative of the type of information that is provided approximately monthly. This one I do have an extra copy.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, we will have copies run off.

Mr. Stefanson: I am also told that there has been no update to that economic study that was done back in 1997 that I believe the member has seen or has had a copy of. The Crown corporations, we will be following up as we indicated yesterday. I think those were the issues that the member wanted me to get back to as soon as possible, as best I have it.

Mr. Chairperson: I am sorry, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, that is it, Mr. Chairman. I think those are all of the outstanding issues I said I would try to get back to the member today.

Mr. Chairperson: Very good, thank you.

Ms. Cerilli: I appreciate getting that information when it is copied, and I will start asking some questions while we are waiting for those copies to be made. I am just trying to figure out where to start, because we are waiting for that stuff, if I should start off with the finances or maybe somewhere else and then come back to some of that.

I think I am going to then start off a little bit differently. I am going to start off talking about some issues related to the ticket sales. I can speak on this issue from some personal experience as well, because I ordered over $300 of tickets from the deal that was offered in the phone book, where you had to make your order before October sometime, and then we are supposed to have certain fees waived. I recently received the tickets by registered letter and picked them up at the post office, and was concerned that the tickets that I picked up were not the ones that we had ordered.

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There was a confusion. There were a number of statements that we got from the Pan Am Games confirming that we had ordered tickets and confirming that we would be receiving them. There was one notice that we received that said that, if the items that were listed on the confirmation notice were not what we had intended, we should call in and make some changes, and we did that. Unfortunately, the changes were not made, and the tickets we received were the wrong ones.

The situation is that we ordered for two of the semifinals for the soccer games and received all of 14 tickets for one game. So we now are faced with a situation of having to deal with that. In our case, we bought the tickets as Christmas gifts for nieces and nephews, and I guess we are now going to be taking, I think, it is probably going to be about 12 kids to one soccer game, rather than spreading it over two games. I am giving that kind of detail because it is an example of the kind of problems that people are going to face.

When we called and inquired about how the same mistake could be made twice, it seems like there is a problem between the Pan Am Games Society and Select-A-Seat. I guess to start off with, I want to inquire about how widespread this kind of ticket mix-up has been, and then we will get into talking about how this is going to affect the ticket sales as this becomes known, I mean, if that is one of the things that is happening in terms of the ticket numbers being what they are.

So, first of all, to address this issue of the kind of mix-up that has occurred with the Pan Am Games tickets, if there is any explanation for why this has occurred and for how widespread this has been. Has it only been for certain venues, and we happen to be going to those games, or is it more widespread across all the sports, and what the mix-up has been?

Mr. Stefanson: I will obviously inquire more of the Pan Am Games Society directly. Speaking to both Jeff and Ted here this afternoon, who are both very involved, neither one of them has indicated this matter being brought to their attention.

I understand, as the member knows, there has been some waiting for some of the scheduling issues, waiting in terms of some of the teams that are participating, and so on, and that there was a flurry of tickets starting to be provided. But having said all of that, I fully expect that her experience is not the norm, to say the least, that it would be an unusual occurrence. So it causes me concern.

I will certainly follow up with Pan Am Games on that issue as to how much of that has occurred and what caused it and doing everything to ensure that any of those kinds of situations just do not happen.

Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is telling me that he was not aware of these kinds of mix-ups occurring? I know that I am just looking for some of the reports that have been in some of the media about different problems with tickets. I thought that this was documented to some extent, that I am not the only one. I have heard other people talking about this. I guess I am kind of surprised that the minister is saying that they are not aware that there have been these kind of problems. I cannot imagine that I am the only one that this has occurred with. Well, maybe that is the case. Maybe it was just one situation.

There are a number of concerns that we had with this. The initial notice that you got once you sent in your money and your request form had no information about confirmation. So the earliest opportunity for them to sort of identify any problems, if there was even a data entry problem with dates, I guess that could be somewhat understandable, but it seems like the tracking has been an issue, because we kept waiting for a notice that would confirm that we were going to get the tickets that we had requested. That did not come until very late and very recently. Then in the end it turned out that we did not get what we requested, but it seemed like not because it was not available but because there was some kind of error made. I guess I just want to clarify then what the minister is saying, that he is not aware of any ticket problems like this to date.

Mr. Stefanson: I guess what I am saying is this has not been a problem that has been brought to either my attention or that Jeff Hnatiuk is aware of, to Sport Manitoba or through Ted Wilton and the services he provides. So it might well have been some media comment or coverage, perhaps from an individual experiencing the same thing as the member for Radisson. As I say it is not something that has been brought to our attention as being a problem but recognizing that it has happened to the member and perhaps others, I am certainly going to look into it.

Ms. Cerilli: It may be difficult for me to get an answer to my other part of the question, if the minister is not aware of this and if his staff are not. My other part of the question had to do with the impact that this would have on ticket sales. I know that there was actually a Scott Taylor column that dealt with this. It was not long after we received our tickets that the Scott Taylor column appeared. I thought that I had that with me. I have had staff sort of bundle up some materials for me, but it does not look like I have that article. I guess I am just looking for the minister to deal with that issue in terms of the impact that these kind of conflicts or confusion and mixups are going to have on ticket sales, and if that already has not been an issue.

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Mr. Stefanson: I can only reiterate that it is not an issue that has been brought to our attention as an area of concern. I believe there have been some articles. The member is correct, there have been articles written about the issue of ticket sales. I know I recall at least one on the issue of how many ticket sales there were today, the gap that still exists to hit their total ticket sales target and their financial target. So I certainly know there have been articles on that. I cannot recall having read one on the kind of situation that happened to the member herself. As I have indicated, the fact that it did happen, we will look into it. I believe the system was done as the member describes where forms were filled out and sent in and then ultimately those mail forms and phone requests were re-entered by Select-A-Seat into their system. Whether that led to some errors or omissions, it would be a possibility, but as I say, I will certainly inquire about this issue from the Games.

Ms. Cerilli: There have been a number of articles written even as recently as this past week to last year when they first started the early ticket purchasing program. I wonder if the minister has an explanation from the Pan Am Games Society of why it is that the ticket sales have been lower than anticipated. I am assuming in the budgeting–I am going to get into this in a little bit more detail–the tickets are being relied on. If there has been sort of a process in the budgeting where there was an expectation of a certain amount of ticket sales at each pregame period leading up to the games, if those targets have all been not met by the ticket sales that have actually occurred–there are two questions there. Has the minister got an explanation from Pan Am Games of why we are not up to where we are as according to the reports in the paper, and then specifically the other question is the targets that are being set for each of these different programs leading up to the games for the ticket sales, which of those have not been met and what those specific targets have been?

Mr. Stefanson: I think one of the challenges has been the fact that in many of the venues the Pan Am Games have been waiting for a couple of things: for the finalization of the teams that are going to participate, as the member knows, and then of course slotting the teams into the Games schedule. One issue that has been raised by individuals is that they were waiting to see what teams were participating on what days, in which venues, before they would be buying their tickets, which again certainly makes a lot of sense. If you are going to a soccer game, you might have a preference to go and see a particular country as opposed to just buying a generic ticket for a game in advance and not knowing who is going to be participating. So now that the schedules are being finalized, that will significantly enhance their ability to sell many of those tickets because initially the tickets that were selling at the fastest pace were tickets for the finals and semifinal events.

While we are on this, I think, to give the member an overall sense, as of June 1, about 210,000 tickets have been sold which represents about 40 percent of the target. I am told that based on various market research that the Games officials have been doing, they are confident that ticket sales will meet or even exceed their target. The research that they have been doing, not surprisingly, indicates that Manitobans are keenly interested and supportive of the Games, but surveys indicate that those intending to purchase tickets will do so close to Games time. I think we do have the benefit to look back at various significant gaming events that we have had in Manitoba and that really has been a fairly consistent pattern, I believe. It is like the world junior hockey sold a significant percentage of their tickets in the last handful of days leading up to the event, but some of the events are heavily purchased and sold out, in areas like baseball and aquatics and soccer and volleyball, basketball, athletics.

Obviously, with tickets now becoming available on Select-A-Seat and that did not happen at all their locations until May 8, average sales have tripled, so again that is creating more opportunities for individuals to purchase tickets. But even to put things in perspective, the sales to date represent the equivalent of selling out seven Grey Cups and the largest volume of sales for an event in the city's history. So, again, I think that for all of us puts it in perspective. The member did ask whether or not there were targets at each individual stage along the way. I take it she is meaning that when they launched their telephone insert, did they have a target? Did they achieve it when they moved on to some of their next targeted advertising in print and so on? Did they have some targets and what that would do. I will have to follow up that issue with the Pan Am Games Society.

Ms. Cerilli: Before getting into some of the issues around the delays in slotting and knowing the teams, I want to just deal with the actual budget for the ticket sales. I know I complained last year in the Estimates that the revenue description in the budget is not very descriptive, that it does not go into a lot of detail like the kind of detail we have under expenditures. Marketing revenue is all lumped together. I am wanting just to clarify the amount that we are expecting from ticket sales now. I am assuming it has not changed, that we are still expecting the same amount as when they revised this budget that I received in May of '98.

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The figure that the minister used initially is the same. It is the $140.5-million budget. The article that I read in the paper says they need to raise $13 million net through the ticket sales. That represents between 550,000 to 600,000 of the million seats available. This is where I am wanting some clarification. Is the $13-million figure net for ticket sales, that is not based on selling out the games? What is the figure in terms of the number of seats available that is the target for the games? How does that compare with the amount that would be raised on ticket sales if the games were completely sold out?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, the member was correct with the comments of the numbers that she was putting on the record that the overall sales target is $13 million as at the beginning of June, and I am sure this number is a little bit higher today, which is June 9. As of June 1, there were about 210,000 tickets, worth about $5.5 million, so that is where the 40 percent comes from in terms of what has been sold to date.

The Games was not budgeting for a complete sellout of every venue, but as to what their revenues would be if they were to sell out absolutely every venue, I will return with that number for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: So I am wondering then, if the budgeting around the ticket sales in terms of not anticipating a sellout in terms of counting on that money for your balanced budget, if that is one of the areas that the Pan Am Games Society and the governments are going to be banking on in terms of having a balanced budget, if the statements continue to be that they are not planning to have a deficit, you are still, I guess, hoping that you are going to be meeting the $13-million target.

What I am asking is: are you now thinking that if you need to exceed that $13-million target, and that has sort of been a cushion in order to meet the balanced budget?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, if I understood the question correctly, to have a balanced budget would mean hitting the sales target of $13 million as per the budget. If more tickets are sold than what is targeted, obviously that will lead to the generation of a surplus from the Games, which would be a part of a legacy for sport in the province of Manitoba. I think that answered the question.

Ms. Cerilli: Not really. What I am wondering is if this figure of $13 million has actually provided a cushion. I mean if the rest of the article that I am using is correct, it has been correct so far with saying that the target for the Games is $13 million, but that represents only, at the uppermost, 60 percent of the million seats available, so that means there is potentially another 40 percent revenue available from the amount calculated from tickets.

What I am wondering is if the Games is now counting on now actually selling more than the target, because they are going to have to use those ticket sales to make up from cost overruns in other areas, that you are relying even more heavily on ticket sales. We are going to get into this in the budget a little bit more, but I understand that some of the areas in the Games are actually going over budget, and even since you have gotten more government revenue. What I am wondering is if we are actually relying more on ticket sales now and you are actually going to have to use that 40 percent cushion that is available in the ticket sales by selling more than just the 550,000 to 600,000 seats, that you are actually going to have to sell more than that in order to have a balanced budget.

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Mr. Stefanson: The short answer to that, Mr. Chairman, is no. The information I have, in discussions I have had with the Games officials, is that they do not have an expenditure problem and will come in on budget on expenditures.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. Like I said, we are going to get into more of those expenditure lines and items as we go through the different areas of the budget. I just want to continue on the tickets issue for a little while longer. Is there anything else planned in terms of more promotions related to the ticket sales? Are there any more of these sorts of windows, or any more campaigns, that are planned in order to try and boost the sales to the level that is not only necessary but potentially what is there before the Games?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will get a more detailed response, but I know they are continuing to do various initiatives to generate more ticket sales. I am told they are going to use a targeted marketing approach, direct sales through various sport organizations and so on. I think, as the member may be aware, Mr. Hubert Mesman, former Deputy Minister of Tourism for the Province of Manitoba, is over at the Pan Am Games directly involved in this very area of various initiatives to sell more tickets, so I will certainly give the member a more comprehensive response from the Games.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues that was raised earlier in our discussion was related to delays in having teams commit and having slotting done and how that affected people jumping up and buying their tickets. I am wondering if the minister has any insight into, if this delays first of all in having teams commit, is that unusual for these games? Is there something new going on that has meant teams have been, from different countries, hesitant to make a commitment? What is the usual time commitment that is allowed under these major international competitions to have countries commit teams? Is there any explanation of reason for the delay?

Mr. Stefanson: I am told it is not uncommon. The member is right, there are really the two issues. There are the commitments of the countries themselves for various sporting venues. Soccer was a good case in point, just within the last couple of months the final commitments from the countries that will be participating.

Then the second issue is, of course, what athletes represent the countries? That is a different issue because not unlike in Manitoba or Canada, they all have various qualification events and so on, so who will represent them on the team is a process that is I think fairly consistent to many of the countries, but it has been this issue of getting some of the country commitments in basketball as well, I believe, baseball, soccer, and so on. I am told that it is not unique to our Games in terms of the time lines of those commitments, but again, I will inquire further of the Games themselves on that issue.

Ms. Cerilli: Is there not a regulation, there are all these agreements that are signed between PASO and the society for the Pan Am Games, is there not sort of a requirement on countries that they have a certain amount of time to make commitments, given the task of organizing events of this magnitude? Has that time been exceeded in the case of the Pan Am Games from Winnipeg?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, Mr. Chairman, I am really just being repetitive. I am told it is not uncommon for these particular games, but I will follow up further with the Pan Am Games Society and provide any further information I can on that issue.

Ms. Cerilli: The question I ask: is there not language in the agreements that are signed? These are agreements that are used in international sport competitions like this or the Olympic Games in all countries. Is there not language that deals with the amount of time that countries have to make commitments?

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Mr. Stefanson: I think it is best that I will follow this issue up with the Pan Am Games. Obviously, countries themselves commit to participate in the Games, but I think there is a fair degree of flexibility in terms of how close to the Games they can finalize their overall levels of participation and the events they are participating in and so on.

Ms. Cerilli: Do the countries that want to participate in Games, such as the Pan Am Games, also have to sign an agreement between their national sport organizations or some branch of their government that signs an agreement with the Pan Am Games Society or some other Canadian organization?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is right, that all of these countries are members of PASO and there is an overall sport governing body, but I will have to follow up with the Games Society as to whether or not there are any minimum commitments from all of these countries in terms of their level of participation in terms of either numbers of athletes and/or numbers of events that they participate in.

Ms. Cerilli: The issue that we were getting at, though, was not just the number but the timing of the commitments that they make, and the fact that they have to, by an agreement, commit to giving this information. I can understand maybe some countries will send athletes to one sport and not another sport; while they are making those decisions, though, the time is ticking away and that has been influencing the Games. That is the salient issue here. Do these agreements specify time frames for making commitments on different sports once a country has decided that, yes, they want to participate in any sports?

So I guess I will have to wait for further confirmation or answers on those issues, but I also wanted to ask questions about the other issue that the minister has said has caused some delays in selling tickets, and that is delays in slotting teams and events in the Games. I guess I can see to some extent this may be related to the previous issue of not having all the countries commit all their teams in the most timely fashion, but have there been any other reasons for delays in slotting?

Mr. Stefanson: As I said, I will return. I should be able to provide that information fairly quickly to the member on the issue of the time lines that she reminded me of is part of the information I am getting. I am told there are not any in terms of the issues of the timing of the countries. I guess the only other issue that was related in part to that was the fact that some countries were looking for some additional financial support and/or compensation to send a certain team. That was the case again in soccer. I believe it is a case in basketball. So that, I believe, led in part to the delay in finalizing some of the countries that were participating in some venues.

In terms of the individual athletes, it is the usual problem or issue of all of their qualifications within each of the countries. I am told even still here in Canada we have some qualifying events still to be concluded for the athletes that are going to participate, but I should be able to return there fairly quickly with more information for the member, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: Getting back, though, to the issue on the ticket sales that we were discussing earlier, I used the figure of $13 million that was based on a Free Press article from June 6 of '99, but there was a Sun article on May 18 of '99, that quotes Kim Browning–what is he? He is the senior vice-president, and he is responsible for the ticket sales–that references him saying that between $14 million and $15 million in sales is the total of budgeted. So I just want to confirm which of these is accurate.

Mr. Stefanson: I believe the accurate number is $13 million. It is certainly the number that I have, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay, well, it seems like the copy I have here is difficult to read so that is why I am sort of taking a bit of time here. The numbers, again, that have been floating around are $9 million in terms of any projected deficit. Is that entirely based on ticket sales? Is that based on the amount that has been made up of ticket sales, or is that $9 million based on other issues related to the budget? Or maybe that number is wrong and is there a different number now in terms of the bottom line for the Games?

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Mr. Stefanson: I can only reiterate what I said earlier, Mr. Chairman. I met recently with some of the officials from the Pan Am Games and the best way to describe it is that they indicate to me that they do not have an expenditure problem. I believe they can come in on target on their expenditures. The sensitivity is on revenue and really the only significant sensitivity on revenue is the ticket sales. As of right now, if sales are approximately $5.5 million and the target is $13 million, we can see the shortfall there as of June 1 was about $7.5 million. I am told that that really is the only area of any significant sensitivity in terms of coming in with a balanced budget.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister says that the sensitivity is on revenues, and yet there are reports in the media on a regular basis about expenditures. The most recent one was from Tuesday, June 8, of this week where there is now an attempt to have the Guess Who play at the closing ceremonies. I have to tell the minister that you are not going to find a bigger Guess Who fan than me, but I guess a lot of people are looking at the price tag of $200,000. I do not know if the situation that is being presented here is that if we want the Guess Who, then more people have to buy tickets and make sure that the seats are going to be full, or if the Guess Who or some comparable act and expense was counted into the budget for the closing ceremonies to begin with.

The point that I am making is, if there is no issue around expenditures, then why are we now being told that this is not something maybe that the Pan Am Games can afford? Is the $200,000 more than what was anticipated for the closing ceremonies for a kind of finale act? I am wanting to get into some of those more budget questions in a little while. So maybe I will just stick to the issue now in terms of dealing with the issue of expenditures and how the Games are dealing with line items like this. If you are deciding that now you want to try and get Burton Cummings and the Guess Who and you are only now finding out this is too big of a price, how has that been dealt with in the budget for the closing ceremonies?

Mr. Stefanson: I think the important point is, and again I just reiterate that the Games Society have indicated they intend to and believe they can live within their overall expenditures of $140.5 million. Within each of the venues, they have a festivals budget, obviously along with a number of other categories. Those are decisions that they are in the process of finalizing, setting the priorities. If they want the Guess Who to perform at closing ceremonies, what the cost is going to be and whether or not it could be done within their budget, whether they have to find the resources elsewhere and within their expenditures, if that is the highest priority, those are decisions they are going through right now.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess what I am trying to understand, though, is dealing with this whole issue of the Games only targeting at most about 60 percent of the seats being filled in terms of the revenue that they are counting on from the ticket sales and what this means for the budget. Are you then just trying to have that additional 40 percent of ticket sales be surplus, or is that somehow going to have to be included into the budget for things like having the Guess Who at the closing ceremonies or other issues that we will get into?

Mr. Stefanson: I think the real issue here is they believe, they being the Pan Am Games, that they have set a realistic target of $13 million for ticket sales. On the one hand, we are sitting here talking about a degree of concern about their ability to hit the $13 million. Now we are talking about the other side, the luxury that collectively we might have if they exceed the $13 million.

If ticket sales really start to take off and they see that they are going to exceed that budgeted amount, the Games Society will have, I believe, one of two choices. If they think there are some other expenditures that they should make that would add value to the Games, they would have to look at that. Otherwise, they would be in the position of generating a surplus, and a surplus would basically go to a sport legacy here in the province of Manitoba.

At this particular point in time, I guess the objective is to hit the $13 million to be sure the Games break even. I hope the Games are in the situation of having that opportunity to look at exceeding that mark and making the decision whether or not they want to make some last-minute adjustments on the expenditure side that they think would add value or leaving the money for future sport in Manitoba.

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Ms. Cerilli: But if the minister does the same mathematics that I do, based on the 40 percent of the seats available for ticket sales that are not in the $13-million target, that is conservatively around a $5-million amount that could be a surplus if we did sell out, estimating around what the actual sell-out amount is going to be. What I am wondering then is if the ticket sales do really take off in the last little while, is that what you are looking at that could be a surplus? Because what you are saying is all the other line items are not going over budget.

Mr. Stefanson: That is exactly what I am saying. If the Games get in that position, then they will have the opportunity to make further decisions whether or not additional dollars should be expended to add additional value to the Games, if that is deemed necessary and appropriate, or to leave the surplus in place.

Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is confirming, then, that he thinks that all the other line items are going to be coming in on budget. There is no going over expenditure of any of the budget from the information that he has based on this revised budget of $140,538,317.

Mr. Stefanson: I can only reiterate that the information I have, based on recent meetings, is that the Pan Am Games Society believes that they can live within their overall expenditure budget of $140,583,000 and do not intend to exceed that unless they have additional revenue. It is deemed as you have already discussed, that there are some other expenditures that would add further value to the Games.

Ms. Cerilli: Listening then more carefully to the minister's answer, he has clarified for me that some of the budget lines may be going over budget in the expenditure side because what he said is they are going to be able to live within their overall budget of over $140 million. What I am wanting to get from the minister, then, is some information about which budget lines are moving in which way and how money is being transferred within the budget on the expenditure side.

Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct. When I am referring to hitting the budget, it is on an overall expenditure basis. I am sure that there has been movement between individual budget lines and there might be further movement between individual budget lines as the Games continue to meet their needs and their priorities. One example of a transfer, to give the member a sense, I am told, would be the whole issue of purchasing consolidation. The example that is used here is the issue of tenting. It says that numerous divisions like festivals and protocol, games services and games operations require tenting. What they did is have all requirements consolidated within the games operations division, and all individual tenting budgets were transferred to the games operations where they were made one consolidated purchase. The staff are there who had the expertise to look after the placement and setup, so what they would have done was reduced the budgets of festivals, protocol, games services, games operations and increased the budget–I should not have said reduce games operations, reduce festivals, protocols, games services, and increase the budget of games operations by transferring to that one area, so there has been some of that taking place to date, and I am sure there might be more of it that takes place.

Ms. Cerilli: We will get into some of that detail then. In terms of the ceremonies line, which in the budget I have is $2,567,307, has the ceremonies line changed at all, and can you indicate the amount? If it has increased or decreased?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think what would be most appropriate if the member finds it acceptable is I will contact the Games to see if I can provide a revised business plan, which I do not see any reason that I cannot, and to have the adjustments outlined and the explanation of the adjustments, because I think that is probably where the member is going to head anyway. I do not have all of those details here, so I can undertake to get the most current business plan. It will be different from the business plan the member is working off. I know that from some of the examples, the one example I have already given on tenting, another example.

I will try to get the revised budget, and I do not see any reason I cannot do that and show the adjustments and give explanations why. Then I think that can expedite because, if the member starts going line by line on all of the expenditures, I do not have all those details here. So they definitely have changed. I know that line has changed. I think literally every expenditure line has changed to some extent.

Ms. Cerilli: I thought that was one of the things I actually asked for the other day. I do not know if that is one of the things, because I assumed I was dealing with the most recent one. I just want to clarify if that is not something that the–a sheet that the minister has already given to me. It does not look like it actually.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, there was some confusion on that issue, and as I said, I did not get a chance to follow up with staff and advance a meeting this afternoon. Staff interpreted the question as whether or not the business plan had been revised, gave me an example of, yes, that it has been revised from the one that the member was probably working off of, in the sense of individual lines, not the overall expenditures, but the overall expenditures did remain the same at the $140.5 million. As I have indicated, I will undertake to get the revised business plan and an explanation of the changes from the plan that the member is working off.

Ms. Cerilli: I would think that this is just going to be another one sheet similar to the one that I have. There are some other attachments to this one in terms of the venues, but I notice that has actually no dollar allotments to it. I would appreciate getting that tomorrow so that we could actually use it in our discussions when we resume tomorrow afternoon. I do not believe we are going to be sitting in the morning, so I will give you a little extra amount of time.

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I am going to spend a little bit of time anyway on some of these matters, and I will work as much then again around the fact that I do not have the most recent budget in front of me. The issue I wanted to raise in terms of the ceremonies is it has been described to me that there has been a rather large expense to now be included in the Pan Am Games that was not initially budgeted for. That is the presence of some of the Royal Family, specifically Princess Anne, to be part of the Games.

So the first question I want to ask is: was there originally a plan to have someone like that become part of the opening ceremonies, and was it budgeted for?

Mr. Stefanson: First of all, on the comparison, I will get that as soon as possible. I am sure we could have it potentially as early as tomorrow. I know the House leaders are discussing. I am not available for Estimates tomorrow, so they are discussing what departments will be up tomorrow. Having said that, we will certainly target tomorrow, but if we do not meet again till the start of next week, I am sure we can make that information available.

The Royal visit, again, I am told, and I know that the budget included various allocations for visits of officials, in terms of the Royal visit itself, it is not as though the entire cost is falling on the Pan Am Games Society. What I should do for the member is get her a breakdown of the elements of what is being paid for and by whom and what the impact is to the Pan Am Games directly.

Ms. Cerilli: Was it the Pan Am Games Society that invited Princess Anne?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, I know they are very pleased to have her involvement in participation. I will have to confirm for the member the nature of the official request.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe the minister can confirm then that there were some issues or difficulties in this area, that the Princess was invited not necessarily following proper protocol, and she was invited actually before there were the funds in place. Can you confirm what the total amount for her visit is? I have been told that it is approximately a million dollars. I appreciate the minister saying that now maybe that is not all going to be borne by the Pan Am Games Society.

I am also interested in finding out other events that she is going to do and where the rest of the costs are going to be paid from, but I am wondering if he is aware that the federal government, in following proper protocol, should be the ones involved in inviting the Princess to visit our country, and that this is not necessarily what occurred, and it actually has caused some difficulties related to the Pan Am Games. Is he aware of that?

Mr. Stefanson: I think, Mr. Chairman, rather than speculate, which I do not like to do, I will get the member all the details on the nature of the original request to Princess Anne. I believe I should be able to give her a reasonable summary of how her expenditures are being covered and by what level of government and what organization. I will certainly undertake to provide her with as much information as I can on what her activities will be, I gather, when in Manitoba. It was the question, what activities she will be participating in, and I will certainly undertake to provide that.

Ms. Cerilli: If the events related to the invitation of Princess Anne are as I have described, I am wondering if the minister would not have wanted to have been aware of this, and if he is not being made aware of these kinds of issues, or if there is someone here at the Legislature, even the Premier's office or otherwise, that would have been informed of something like this.

Mr. Stefanson: I can only be repetitive. Certainly the feedback I have had is the Games are very pleased that Princess Anne will be participating, that they are having royalty participate in the Pan Am Games here in Manitoba. Rather than speculate, as I have already said, I will undertake to return with the information I have already said I would, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: I have had brought up for me the article I was referring to earlier, written by Scott Taylor, on April 23 of this year, '99, and I am just wanting to see if it is the one that I was thinking of. No. I do not believe that this is the article that I was thinking of.

One of the other questions I want to ask is: have there been any polls conducted? I know that some of the material I have been reading talks about percentages, one of them here talks about a certain percentage of Winnipeggers or Manitobans know about the Games. So that raises the question of any polling done by the Pan Am Games Society or by the provincial government. Here it is. There is a quote here: 98 percent of Winnipeggers are aware of the Games and the tickets are priced in a range of a family budget. That is a quote by Bob McMahon who is the chief operating officer of the Games and it is in the Winnipeg Sun.

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We all know that people can be misquoted in the newspaper, but I am wondering if that is an accurate quote. If there is polling that is being done related to the Games, who is doing that polling?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told the Pan Am Games Society has been doing polling on the issues that the member raised from that one article. The provincial government is not doing polling on the Pan Am Games. I am not aware that the city or the federal government is, but they would have to speak for themselves. But the Pan Am Games, I know, has done some polling on issues like levels of awareness, intentions of buying tickets and those kinds of issues to, again, try to, I believe, assist them with their marketing efforts and their ticket sales.

Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is saying it is the Pan Am Games Society, I am assuming then through their marketing division, that is doing the polls. Which polling company are they using? Are they using Western Opinion Research or which polling company? I guess the obvious question is: will we be given access to the poll results and the questions?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, I will get back to the member on each of those issues with the nature of the polling; how often or how much of it is being done; what firm and/or firms are doing it; and, the last question, determine whether or not it can be made available, and if so, obviously I will make it available.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister can also add to that list–I am not sure if he mentioned the company that has been hired–the cost of any contract to the Pan Am Games Society, if it is some kind of mixed poll, if there are other events that are involved. I am thinking of the possibilities of the sort of thinking behind that kind of polling if it is related to marketing as the quote that I read suggests or if there is another intent, some sort of description of what the intent is of the polling.

Mr. Stefanson: I will undertake to do that, Mr. Chairman. My understanding is it is specifically related to marketing, but I will confirm what the intent is, what the objectives are of the polling and, as I said earlier, the firm and/or firms who are doing it. Unless there is some reason that I cannot release the costs, I will provide the costs. Obviously for all of the questions that the member has asked, I will either provide it or I will give her a reason why it cannot be provided and then we can discuss that at that point, but I will certainly undertake to try and provide as much as I can.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues that has come up, and it is related to a lot of the topics that we have been discussing in terms of ticket sales and polling and advertising, and that has to do with the marketing of the Games and the plan that has been in place. It seems that there has been not a lot of out-of-province marketing. I know from reading even some of the documents that the minister has just given me that that has been part of the plan all along it seems.

I was reading just in one of the reports that the articles that we are now seeing in The Globe and Mail, it seems like they were always intended to just start running in The Globe and Mail at this time, sort of the end of May, beginning of June. Is that the case? Does it seem to the minister as well, as it does to so many other people, that the marketing outside of Winnipeg and outside of Manitoba has either been late or has not really been a large component of the advertising plan of the advertising for the Games?

Mr. Stefanson: I think the member was referring to page 3 of that most recent Partners report that did indicate, or does indicate, The Globe and Mail ads begin the end of May; Air Canada in-plane video, boarding ran posters, counter banners beginning in June.

Again, I am told that that is all part of the plan, that the vast majority of participants to the Games are going to come from either Manitoba or a reasonable radius around Manitoba. That is not to say that there is not a need to be targeting some of the international markets, and they are doing that, but certainly the majority of focus will be in that radius, along with, obviously, not only the athletes, the coaches, the media. From the further destinations, the majority of the participants, along with the athletes and coaches, end up being family and friends, so the opportunity to maximize attendance and response is within a reasonable radius of Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I wonder if the minister has asked the same question, as people are wondering: why is this marketing outside of Manitoba so late, and why does it seem like it is so limited? Part of the whole idea of the Games is to bring to Manitoba tourism that otherwise would not come here. It is hard to see that that is going to happen when people now only have just over a month to do tickets, booking. Airline tickets, as we know, if you want to get reduced rates, have to be booked at least two weeks in advance. So it seems that if we are really wanting to attract people from outside of Manitoba, this is all happening a little bit late. I am wondering if the minister has some explanation for that.

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Mr. Stefanson: Well, I think, in fairness to the Games, what they have done is gone at the most appropriate and most likely markets and targeted those more aggressively. I cannot recall the slogan now for the come home or come back to Manitoba or Winnipeg where they have been targeting individuals to contact family and relatives and friends to come back to Manitoba during the Games.

The reality of the Games, I think, is that our largest markets, as I have already said, are going to be Manitobans. They are going to be people within reasonable proximity that can drive to Winnipeg and Manitoba, and they are going to be people who tie this in as a major event in Manitoba and a chance to come back to Manitoba, come home or come to visit relatives or friends in the province of Manitoba. Those, I believe, are the right markets. Those are the markets they are going after the most aggressively.

Having said that, that is not to say you should not be doing some generic advertising in terms of just making everybody aware the Games are taking place here in Manitoba, because that also is a market. But, again, I believe their research has shown that that is going to be a much, much smaller market for them, and therefore they have been targeting the areas of greatest likelihood of success and strength. I think that is the appropriate thing to do.

Ms. Cerilli: I wonder if I can get a breakdown then of the budget for advertising or marketing. This could be part of the budget information that the minister is going to bring, because there are different lines here. There is marketing, and then there is image, media and communications. For all of that, how much is divided between local and sort of out of the province, particularly even south of the border, the states that are closest to Manitoba? Especially knowing that, I believe the U.S. team is going to be spending some time prior to the Games in Fargo. So it would seem that there would be a natural market, if you would, there.

So I am wondering if the minister could describe if there are strategies like that that the Games are incorporating into their marketing plan.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, the member is correct in terms of the U.S. team. I believe the arrangements are that they are flying into Fargo and working out of there, and then obviously being brought into Manitoba. I am told, in the Fargo News recently, they had a group or a delegation up here, gave a major four- or five-page feature through their local papers on the Pan Am Games and all the activities taking place in Manitoba.

The member is right, that is the point I was making, is that North Dakota, Minnesota, South Dakota, those are strong markets for us in terms of our regular tours, and they should be strong markets for the Pan American Games in terms of the opportunity for those people to see the U.S. teams participate in all these different events. I will get her further details on what specific things the Games have done in that market along with following up on her request for a breakdown of the advertising and marketing expenditures.

Ms. Cerilli: I am interested to know of the budget amounts that are here, how much is actually going into ads rather than staffing. How much is actually going into sort of on-the-ground advertising and marketing?

I just want to pursue this a bit more. If the minister would not agree, considering what the dollar exchange is, the U.S., that there is even more of an incentive perhaps for more Americans to come up to Winnipeg this summer and if that is being considered in the marketing strategy.

Mr. Stefanson: The short answer would be yes, Mr. Chairman, both for the Pan Am Games themselves and for Tourism Manitoba. I will undertake to get further details for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: I think that probably some of this information is addressed in the economic impact assessment that was done, but I am wondering if the minister has then any information about the number of tourists that are expected to be attracted to Manitoba, to be part of the Games, if that has been something that has been part of any market research or part of your tourism planning.

Mr. Stefanson: Again, I will provide that information for the member. Obviously, the Games will have a sense of what they have sold in what locations to date and to hit their further targets, what they are expecting from the Manitoba marketing from other markets. So, again, I will follow up on that issue and undertake to provide the member as much information as I can on that.

Ms. Cerilli: Another thing that was very interesting for the minister to look at and maybe he has done this already is to compare what was said and projected in the bid for the Pan Am Games in terms of tourism and what is planned for now and what in the end will actually occur, if the minister has considered that at all and what kind or analysis he has on that in terms of comparing what was projected in the bid and what is now actually happening.

Mr. Stefanson: I have indicated I will get the current status of what is expected in terms of out-of-province visitors. We do have the Manitoba impact assessment that was done back a few years ago. We will have an opportunity to compare where we are at today to what that assessment was projecting.

Ms. Cerilli: Does the minister know if the Pan Am Games has been also promoting the volunteer component? Are we having many volunteers that are from out of the province?

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Mr. Stefanson: As the member can see on page 12, and I recognize this is the April-May report that I provided, it gives a bit of a snapshot of the status of volunteers at that point in time. It does not address the very specific question the member asked, but I state the obvious. The current volunteer registrations are 17,500. I am sure most, if not all, are Manitobans. At the bottom of that page it shows that over 11,000 volunteers have now completed their general training. So most of them will go through some kind of a training process. I would hazard to guess or suggest that the number of volunteers from outside of Manitoba will be quite small for a number of reasons, logistics, the training that is required, and so on.

Ms. Cerilli: The reason I asked that question is because the theme that the minister had talked about before in their advertising was sort of this whole, come home to Manitoba for the Pan Am Games. I appreciate what the minister has said.

One of the other issues that has been raised with me is the promotion of the Games and local athletes or Canadian athletes. I think I have seen a little bit on this more recently, but for a while there I kept wondering: where is the promotion and coverage for our local athletes? I think I may have talked about this in previous year's Estimates, where often it is a grievance that local sport organizations, local teams have with our media, they do not give enough attention to the effort and the achievements of our local amateur athletes. I know that the staff here that are from Sport Manitoba would probably agree with this, because I am sure that this is something that gets discussed over on Main Street quite a bit, the people that I talked to. One of the things, I am wondering, is what the plan is and has been in terms of local media learning about who the athletes are that are going to be competing from Manitoba and from across the country and how we can get these names more readily known by Manitobans and Canadians and could generate some excitement around the possibilities that they have during the Games and developing that whole sort of pride of rooting for our local, homegrown athletes. I think that is often a big ticket seller as well. Everyone likes to cheer for the local athletes when they go to these kind of events, whether you are watching it in your own home on television or live.

So I am wondering if the minister could explain what the program is in the marketing department for this whole area.

Mr. Stefanson: I think, well, the member touched on it, you are starting to see more of that now. I think one of the problems has been that in many cases, like we discussed earlier, many of the athletes are not being decided upon till just in the last short while. So to a certain extent, it is waiting to see who the athletes are that are representing Canada or Manitobans that are participating. I think we will start to see an awful lot more of that now as those athletes are being finalized.

I saw in one of the newspapers the other day an ad about coming to see Kelly Stefanyshyn, the swimmer, highlighted, and so on. There were some Manitoba athletes that were expected to be on some teams that did not make the teams. I think even just recently the volleyball team was just selected in the last short period of time. Part of it has been the timing of the selection process of some of the athletes. There has been a degree of profile given to the athletes that everybody was confident would be participating, like Tanya Dubnicoff, and so on.

But I agree with the point. I fully expect that through a combination of the Pan Am Games and the interest of the local media that we will see a lot more athlete profile. I know some of the media have been talking about profiling athletes, CJOB, Free Press, and so on. I fully expect that we will see that over the next several weeks.

Ms. Cerilli: So has there been a delay in some of the selection? I know that some of the facility trial meets have been delayed, in some cases a year later. I know that some of the facilities initially when we had these discussions a couple of years ago, the test events were supposed to be last summer, and their test events are really only occurring now because the facilities have not been completed. So has this been something that has been an issue in terms of selecting athletes as well? Has there been a delay of any kind in selecting athletes for the Canadian contingent?

Mr. Stefanson: No, there were not delays as a result of venues being available for all of these competitions. The member can also see on page 11, again of the Partners report, at that point in time some of the upcoming test events that have just, of course, recently been held: the judo championships, water polo, and so on, roller sports, beach volleyball. So that, in part, makes my point about some of the athletes. Obviously, some have been decided for longer periods of time. I am told that it has just been the nature of scheduling. It has not been influenced by venues not being available.

Ms. Cerilli: Is that something else that is sort of determined by agreements related to the Pan Am Games, that countries have to have their trial events, the trials to qualify by certain dates, and has that all been complied with? It seems to me that that would be something fairly important to get established clearly so it is fair for all countries involved.

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, we will inquire of the Pan Am Games Society, but again, I do not think there is anything unusual here relative to these test events, relative to our Games. I think it is just the nature of hosting major events and the timing of the various test events. I do not think there is anything more to it than that.

Ms. Cerilli: What I think I want to spend some time doing next is actually talking a little bit about some of the facilities, because that is another major reason often for hosting these kinds of Games is to leave a legacy of facilities. It has been a concern expressed about these particular Games relative to other ones in the past that actually a pretty small fraction of the dollars invested into the Games are going into facilities. So that is what I want to do is just to go through and confirm that because, as time has gone on, I have become aware actually of some upgrades in facilities sort of close to home, the area I represent, out of East Kildonan and Transcona. I was pleased to see that the Kildonan East track was being resurfaced, and that is going to be used for the Pan Am Games. So there are good news stories like that and good things happening in different parts of the province.

I think it is important to get a real accurate understanding of what the facilities are that are going to be left, including upgrades, also thinking of the multiple use that some of these facilities would have. I know that the track that is being resurfaced at Kildonan East High School is not going to be used for track and field, but I am assuming that it is going to be upgraded in mind for the kind of use that it will have for the community and the high school once the games are past. So those are some of the kinds of issues that I want to spend some time dealing with.

So I just want to go through the list that I have and clarify where the budget, too, is coming from in terms of some of these facilities, because that has been another issue is some of the facilities may be drawing on funds that are not necessarily all from the Pan Am Games, and maybe that is something else that we need to clarify. I am just looking for another list that I thought I had of some other upgrades that are being done. Here it is. I am trying to work from two different lists here. One is in alphabetical order and the other one is not, so I am trying to figure out a logical way to sort of go through this so I do not miss anything.

First of all, let me just ask the general question: is it true that some of the facility upgrades are being covered by dollars that are outside of the Pan Am Games budget?

Mr. Stefanson: I think what I would say on that is there have been improvements to various facilities that will meet the long-term needs of sport in Manitoba that will benefit the Pan Am Games. Some examples would be the new baseball stadium which was funded in part by the federal and provincial governments. I think that was through the infrastructure program. The East Side Eagles field hockey surface was done through again I believe the infrastructure program. The retention pond in Transcona for water skiing was done in part through our UCPA agreement and I believe some other sources. Those are a few examples that come to mind of facility improvements that are being done for the long-term needs of sport and community activities. By doing them now, they will obviously benefit the Pan Am Games. Federal and provincial governments are supporting them, but that is outside of the Pan Am budget.

Ms. Cerilli: Based on that answer, I think it is worth taking some time–and I guess we are not going to get too far with it today–and going through the budget. I do have a May '97 budget in front of me from the facilities division, and it says its expenditures to date and then it has–it looks like it is really not the best list to be working from. Maybe one of the other things I can ask from the minister is an updated version of this facility's expenditure chart, and I will just go by some of the sports. Maybe I will start with some of the ones that maybe are in similar situations but have not been mentioned by the minister.

The equestrian venue at Birds Hill Park, has that been upgraded using Pan Am Games funds plus funds from another source?

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I do not believe there was any other contribution for equestrian improvements, but I could stand to be corrected. But what we will do when we prepare that revised list or obtain that revised list, is highlight any of the Pan Am expenditures that had additional provincial support from some other area.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. How about the venue at the Assiniboine Park. The pavilion there had some upgrades, as well, and that facility is going to be used for archery. Were some of the changes at the pavilion at Assiniboine Park related to the Pan Am Games?

Mr. Stefanson: A short answer is no, Mr. Chairman. There was a separate project there for the restoration of the pavilion, and I think three distinguished artists contributed their art to be put on display at the pavilion. It really is all part of the enhancement of that facility as an attraction for Manitobans and for tourists, if you look at the changes at Assiniboine Park, with the Leo Mol Garden and now the pavilion that has Clarence Tillenius, Ivan Eyre and I forget the third artist's name right now.

But I certainly encourage all members to go and visit the pavilion. It is just another great destination for visitors and tourists. So it was done completely on a stand-alone unrelated basis. Again, by having that facility improved and open to the public and with those kinds of amenities, I am sure it will add value to the people who go to the park for the archery event.

Ms. Cerilli: Then just to clarify. The minister is going to provide me with an up-to-date list of all the facilities and venues and the dollar amounts that have been involved in their upgrading, and he is also going to be able to indicate which of those also have additional money through infrastructure programs or WDA or any other program that might have been involved. Is that correct? Does he also know the total dollar amount of monies through infrastructure or any other source that went into facilities that are going to be used for the Pan Am Games?

Mr. Stefanson: What I had indicated I would provide is to get the updated list of the capital expenditures of the Pan Am Games and then highlight any of those expenditures that included additional provincial contributions outside of the Pan Am Games. So that is what I indicated I would provide.

We have just discussed some improvements to facilities that are not being done through Pan Am Games funding that in some way will benefit the Pan Am Games. I can provide some obvious examples of things that have been done. I have highlighted a couple. I am sure we could think of more, but the member asked me one like the pavilion where an improvement was done and it is not related to the Pan Am Games. So we can certainly provide a summary of some of the obvious sport facility improvements that have been done that will not only benefit the community but benefit the Pan Am Games.

Ms. Cerilli: Just quickly then, I am wondering though if the minister has a figure of the total dollar value of all those sports facilities that will be used for the Pan Am Games, what the total dollar value is of other funds that have been expended on the upgrading or development of those facilities.

Mr. Stefanson: No, I do not, Mr. Chairman, because, as I indicated, a number of those improvements were being done not specifically because of the Pan Am Games. The Pan Am Games were an additional benefit to the improvements of the facilities. One of the best recent examples is the baseball facility. We were doing that to meet the long-term needs, create a great facility downtown here in Winnipeg. So, no, we have not gone and started tallying those as they relate to the Pan Am Games because really they do not relate directly to the Pan Am Games.

Ms. Cerilli: I am just wanting to wrap up for the day, but I am noticing that the list that I have, I think, is quite out of date. The example I just raised was the upgrade of the track at Kildonan East high school, and I notice that it is not on the list that I have of venues, but, if I remember correctly from the signage, that is going to be the venue for field hockey. There is a community club there as well as the high school, and there is quite a lot of field space. I am wanting to know if specific examples like that, if that is Pan Am Games money or if that is other dollars outside of the Pan Am Games budget from infrastructure money or something else.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, I referred to the same project. I called it the East Side Eagles project because they were the sponsor. It is the same site, and that was done through infrastructure money.

Mr. Chairperson: As originally agreed, Sport will cease at approximately five o'clock and Consumer and Corporate Affairs will commence. We will take a couple of minutes just to arrange that. Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Stefanson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.