Introduction of Guests

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon nine Grade 9 students from Linden Meadows School under the direction of Ms. Tag Haney. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

We also have nine Grades 6 to 9 students from Poplar Grove School under the direction of Mr. Garrett Froese. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers).

Also, twenty-six Grade 9 students from Sargent Park School under the direction of Ms. Rebecca Decter. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, Mr. Nestibo purchased one-fifteenth interest in 79 acres of land from Mr. Holden in the R.M. of Winchester for a $1 consideration. I would like to ask the First Minister whether he has investigated whether in fact this purchase for $1 is based on fair market value.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, some of these issues and information have come to my attention. I have asked various people for information concerning these different allegations and pieces of information, and the matter is being investigated. I expect to get more information shortly.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): When this matter was first raised by citizens in the area, they wrote the Department of Rural Development. They were told that this matter would be only dealt with by the court. In fact, the department asked that they be kept informed with the court decision. In the media reports today, it is indicated the Department of Rural Development is investigating this matter.

Can the Premier indicate who is investigating this matter on behalf of the concerned citizens of that area?

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Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): As the member knows, this is a matter where Mr. Sexton has decided to take the matter to the courts. Under the provision of The Municipal Act, indeed that is the course of action that should be taken by an individual who feels aggrieved by the particular action. The court will decide whether or not there was an impropriety. We have indeed, as a department, looked into the matter, and this is the course of action that should be taken so that if the law was broken, there are repercussions that will take place after the court has made its decision.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have not received an answer yet on the $1 purchase for the one-fifteenth share of the 79 acres of land. We are getting conflicting information from people in the area that approached the department to begin with, then were forced to go, they felt, to the court, then were told by the department that they had to in fact keep them apprised with the court decision, and then the media is reporting from Mr. Downey, the member for Arthur-Virden, the present member, that they are in fact, the Department of Rural Department is dealing with this.

I would like to ask the Premier: in light of his announcement on the ethics committee formed by the Conservative Party, with the comment about enhancing the democratic process here in Manitoba, has this matter been referred to any member of the ethics committee established by the Premier, and are they doing any investigations concerning this election and its implications for democracy here in Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I have asked the executive of the party to gather facts on the matter so that they can conduct their own investigation and review all of the allegations and suggestions of conduct in this matter. The code of ethics is in the process of final drafting for the committee to be set up and adopted, so it is not yet in place. So I have left the matter to be dealt with in the hands of the executive committee.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): After the Monnin inquiry, the Premier had Manitobans believe that he took the issue of ethics in politics and elections seriously, but in this matter the Premier and the minister responsible for industry, trade and technology, the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey), have been aware of this for quite some time. They then proceeded to refer to the Department of Rural Department, including the Premier, by the way, and then take the position, well, it is going to be involved in a court case, so we do not have to do anything.

I am wondering now, flowing from the First Minister's answers, if now that it has been raised by the media–by the way, this Premier was at the nomination in which this individual was nominated. Are we finally going to get what should have happened initially, some investigation, not only in terms of legality of what happened but the ethics of what happened with Mr. Nesbito purchasing land for 70 cents an acre in order to be able to vote in an election in that area?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as has been indicated, the matter was referred to the courts by individuals within the local area, the R.M. of Winchester, I believe, and that process is ongoing. Obviously, neither I nor the minister can or should intervene with that process. With respect to issues that surround our party and the potential of a candidate involved in it, we are doing our own internal investigation which we take seriously.

Mr. Ashton: I am wondering if the First Minister–and recognizing that we could be into an election some of us actually hoped today, but we could be into an election next week, for example. Will the minister give the assurance to the people of Manitoba, particularly the people of the Arthur-Virden constituency who are very concerned about this, that this matter will be taken seriously now, and indeed if Mr. Nesbito was involved in any unethical behaviour, legal or not, that he will not be a candidate for this party? We want to find out–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Filmon: I assure the member that I take the matter seriously, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, when will the people of Manitoba determine from this First Minister what will be happening in this particular case? When will we get an answer to once again try and avoid this kind of unethical behaviour that seems to be at the root of the Conservative Party in this province?

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Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Filmon: I would expect that the member opposite would understand that there has to be some due process that has to be based on fact, that arbitrary decisions are not the way to handle issues of this nature.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I would like to quote from a May 2 letter that I received about a constituent in the member for Assiniboia's (Mrs. McIntosh) constituency. The quote says: "I would rather my grandfather had died on the battle field with dignity NOT in a hallway of a hospital that won't open a bed for him!"

These are the words of a family as they speak about their 78-year-old father and grandfather, Archie Butt, a World War II veteran. Mr. Butt just spent three days and nights in the Grace Hospital emergency room hallway and then endured another eight days and nights in observation.

My question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon). What does the Premier have to say to this family when they say, and I quote again: My father has been in and out of hospitals since January of 1998. In the past year and a half he has been in either ICU, the emergency hallway or in observation. He has never been in a hospital room.

Madam Speaker, what does the Premier have to say to that family?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, a number of steps have been taken to deal with the whole issue of hospital overcrowding, and I am certainly pleased to outline them for members opposite.

First and foremost, we now have committed over 800 net new personal care home beds, which obviously are important in terms of providing the care for individuals who should be in that kind of a facility as opposed to in an acute care facility. We continue to expand and enhance our Home Care program. Our budgeted amount this year is $147 million for our Home Care program. That is up from about $45 million just 11 years ago, again providing that kind of care as opposed to an acute care setting. We continue to make better utilization of our bed management co-ordination right across the city to again relieve the pressure on hospital beds. So a number of steps are being taken to ensure that people do not have to spend time on beds in hallways in our hospital system here in Winnipeg.

Mr. Reid: I will table the letters I have received from the family, Madam Speaker, so that the minister might see more clearly what the comments are.

Madam Speaker, my next question is for the Premier again. Will the Premier explain his government's policy where hospital patients of both genders are forced to lay in hospital gowns that flap open on a hospital stretcher in a hospital hallway for many days and nights without the benefit of adequate nursing care, with no dignity, no privacy, no opportunity to rest quietly in a hospital room or in a hospital bed? Is this the–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we have said very clearly that it is unacceptable to have people on beds in hallways in our hospital system, and that is why we are doing a number of the things that we are doing. That is why we have dedicated in this health care budget an additional $194 million, a 10 percent increase, which I am pleased to note that members opposite had the wisdom to support yesterday when they supported the 1999 budget that this government brought down.

I have outlined very clearly for the member the number of steps that are being taken in terms of more personal care home beds, expanded Home Care program, bed management right across the city-wide system to do just that, to make sure that Manitobans, individuals do not have to spend time on a bed in a hallway in our hospital system.

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Mr. Reid: Well, then, my question, Madam Speaker, is for the Minister of Health, since the Premier (Mr. Filmon) does not want to answer the questions. Will the Minister of Health then please explain to this family why their 78-year-old father and grandfather must spend 11 days and nights not in a hospital bed but on a stretcher in the ER or in observation when the Premier promised in the 1995 election that he would save health care? Is this how you are saving health care in this province?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, first of all, for the member opposite, this is a health issue and I would expect that he would ask the question of the Minister of Health who has direct responsibility for those functions. That is a pretty basic premise in this House that he should be aware of.

I have outlined very clearly for him the number of proactive steps that are being taken to continue to improve health care in the province of Manitoba, and that is at a time when we have come through several years of dealing with significant funding cuts from the federal government. In fact, his own colleagues in the federal system, in a brochure they just recently circulated, go on to talk about the Liberal government has cut from the provinces $21.5 billion.

This year's budget increases health care by $2 billion. This means that for every dollar that the Liberals have taken out of health care funding, they are restoring just 10 cents. During all of that time, we have not only backfilled the money that the Liberal federal government took out of the system, we put in more resources. This 1999 budget includes an additional $194 million, bringing our total budget to $2.1 billion to address the very issues that have been raised in this House today.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, would the minister not agree that in 1995, had the government not broken its promises to personal care homes, we would not be faced with the fact that on Friday the head of the Long Term Care Authority said the nursing home beds would not be available till the year 2001, that we would have had those nursing home beds, that the Health Sciences Centre, what the minister again announced yesterday, will not be ready till 2003, would have been ready had they not broken their promise, and these people would not be waiting in the hallways and we would not be facing the crisis, and the minister would not have had to have pumped all that money into this year's budget if they had done it properly in 1995 as promised?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): No, I do not agree, Madam Speaker. That capital budget that the member refers to back in '95, that was put on hold for the reasons that we have outlined very clearly in this House, the issue I have just pointed out to members opposite in terms of the significant funding reductions from the federal government during that period in time plus the fact that we were establishing regional health authorities. We certainly value the input of regional health authorities in terms of the kinds of facilities that should be in place, and today the majority of those health care projects are going forward.

As well, there are a number of projects outside of that program that are also going forward. Today we have over 850 net new personal care home beds committed here in the province of Manitoba. We can see examples of a number of them under construction, whether it be Misericordia, whether it be Concordia or a number of projects that are underway, but as well, to address the immediate need, we have put in place hundreds of interim beds. That is why, if you look at our health care system today, the number of panelled patients waiting for a personal care home bed have dropped from 250 slightly over a year ago to approximately 50 today. That is because of the action taken to put those beds in place by our government.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, would the minister not agree that the closing of 1,400 acute care beds by this government, according to government estimate statistics, has had a devastating effect even though the government has, quote, committed to 800 new personal care home beds, and the reason the people are in the hallways is quite simply because we have to wait for this government to build those personal care homes that they promised in 1995 that are not built now, that are being built and announced in anticipation of an election campaign. They were dishonest then, and that is why we–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, I do not agree with any of the preamble from the member opposite. If you look at our hospital system today, it is basically providing as much service to the patients of Manitoba, doing as many procedures as it has over any of the previous years. That has, again, been part of a shift to outpatient surgery being done in many cases today, but over and above that, you have 850 net personal care home beds under construction. We have an expanded Home Care program that is recognized as probably the best home care program in all of Canada.

We have a budget that we just brought down with $194 million in it for health care, additional money for health care, which was supported by members opposite, by the way, and the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) keeps referring to one project in Oakbank, a personal care home facility. I encourage him to pay a little attention and do some research. All he needs to do is pick up Saturday's edition of the Winnipeg Free Press, and he will see the notice of tender for the Oakbank-Springfield personal care home under construction, again, part of the capital commitment that this government has made to provide personal care home facilities right throughout Manitoba, Madam Speaker. So he comes here trying to portray that a project is not going forward, but we know and the people of Manitoba know that project is going forward.

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Thank heavens it only took four years to get that process to tender, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his final supplementary question.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the Minister of Health, and I would like to table a letter that I got from the previous Minister of Health, indicating that by April 1, 1999, the new regulation to personal care homes–that we have been waiting for since 1994, were promised in '95, were promised again in 1997–would be in place. I am wondering if the minister can outline when those new regulations for personal care homes will be put in place, since this letter says completion is for April 1, 1999, for the regulations for this standard for personal care homes.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): The member has raised this question before, and we are in the process of concluding the changes to the personal care home regulations. As I have indicated to him and as I have indicated when I have met with representatives of the personal care homes, I know it is something that the members opposite have difficulty accepting, but we have indicated to the people who run and manage those facilities that we will also go out and have further discussions with them in terms of the regulations that are being put in place, Madam Speaker. We certainly believe that keeping in contact and consultation is an important part of governing the province.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, last week I tabled a letter from the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) to a constituent who assured him that the Crown lands lease policy would be adhered to. Today I am tabling copies of policy from the minister's department with the minister's signature on it, saying that the purchaser must qualify under The Crown Lands Act and must "own sufficient livestock or shall be the owner of sufficient livestock within one year of the date of approval of the lease to properly utilize the land." Where the lease provides the pasturing of livestock, the lessee shall pasture on such land only owned by himself or themselves.

Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture: could he tell this House how many others had applied for the same nine quarters of land to purchase or to lease? The minister ignored those applications–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I can tell the honourable member for Interlake that the complainant to the Ombudsman, one Mr. Woloshyn, I believe, applied for the purchase of that land from Mr. Malkowich.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I understand the tradition has been that, with our numbers, we are entitled to the fifth question. I know the opposition voted with the government and they are working together now, but still I think the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) should be allowed his fifth question.

An Honourable Member: You got the vote.

Mr. Kowalski: I was paired.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for The Maples, I think the standard rule is who catches the Speaker's eye first, and I was not aware the honourable member for Inkster was indeed on his feet, if he was. I saw the honourable member for Interlake.

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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Interlake, with a supplementary question.

Mr. C. Evans: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The minister knows that if he reads his documentation–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question. This is not a time for debate.

Mr. C. Evans: Will the minister explain why other individuals would be denied to buy or lease this property for years so that this gentleman could buy the property and in fact then flip it in six months to Mr. Cubby Barrett? Why could the others not have done the same thing?

Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, Walter Malkowich and his family were long-term lessors of this land, some 23, 24 years. Records show that he at all times lived up to full compliance of his lease requirements, was an exemplary lessor and, as such, was the qualified purchaser of that land. There was a period of time when, as a result of one family member leaving, he did not have sufficient cattle on the farm. That was brought to his attention by departmental officials. Departmental officials visited the farm, and he was in compliance with the lease when the approval for purchase of the land was made to Mr. Malkowich.

Mr. C. Evans: Madam Speaker, last week we tabled the report of the Ombudsman. Can the minister explain everything he said today? Can he explain when the Ombudsman said it was wrong, everything the minister said was wrong, to sell that property to Mr. Malkowich? He also stated that he did not understand that Mr. Barrett wanted the land. He also stated the Order-in-Council said that there was nothing mentioned of the Barretts.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, supplementary questions should be a question put to the House, not a debate.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, in fact the information the member was putting on the record is in fact the government House leader last week, when he rose on a point of order, indicated that Mr. Barrett was not part of the Order-in-Council, in fact the same Order-in-Council–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, I would indeed agree there was a point of order. The honurable member for Interlake was recognized to pose a question.

Madam Speaker: Would the honourable member please pose his question now.

Mr. C. Evans: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the minister tell this House when he, in the hallway, admitted he knew nothing of the desire of Mr. Barrett to purchase this land from Mr. Malkowich, and the fact the Order-in-Council dated November '96 that stated the quarters of land sold to Mr. Malkowich also stated three or four quarters of land sold to the Barrett family, the Barrett family–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, I simply want to put on the record that the Malkowich family were legitimate purchasers of their Crown land in keeping with the long-standing policy of the Department of Agriculture, a policy which was in place for all the six years that the New Democrats were in office, and land was sold under similar circumstances to appropriate lessors of agricultural Crown land.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. The phones in many Manitobans' homes have been ringing off the hook as all sorts of polling is being done, some of it of a private nature from the Conservative Party, and we can only speculate by the lack of the election call today is the result of those polls. But my question is more so with respect to the publicly taxpayer-paid polls.

Can the Premier indicate to this Chamber how many surveys and polls has this government commissioned in the last six months?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice and bring back the information.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, then can the Premier indicate to the House what sort of a cost are the taxpayers looking at having to foot because of this government's need to get a pulse of what Manitobans are saying? Does the Premier have any idea in terms of the cost?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, firstly, I will also take the question as notice. But I can assure the member that we do not ask a question about how people will be voting when departments do polling for particular research purposes. So there is no politics involved in that kind of questioning.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, would the Premier then recognize the importance of the polling and the surveying that is being done and therefore say to the House today that those pollings will in fact be released so Manitobans know the content of the polling that this government has done over the last six months?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the policy was announced within the last month, I believe it was, that indicated that all of that polling must be released, all that polling information, on a timely basis.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I have the responses to two questions taken as notice earlier in the session and would like permission to provide them to the House now.

The one question was regarding dates for the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Program. I am pleased to report to the House that the contracts have now been awarded: four contracts to Miller Environmental to run the Winnipeg and rural Household Hazardous Waste Program for the next two years. The Winnipeg depot will be open on Saturday, May 15, the second date on Saturday, May 29, at 55 Trottier Bay. After that, the depot will operate on the first and last Saturday of each month until the end of October. After October, the depot will operate one Saturday per month.

The spring rural dates are as follows–the member had asked for specific dates and locations, so I bring them now–Brandon, the works garage at 900 Richmond on June 19. Portage la Prairie, the date and location is yet to be confirmed, but will be coming shortly. Morden, the fire hall, Stephen and Fourth on June 12. Selkirk, the fire hall, 200 Eaton Avenue, June 12. Pinawa, the town yard, Highway No. 221, June 5.

The fall rural dates will be in Brandon, Steinbach and Dauphin. The dates are not yet confirmed, but they will all be Saturdays. The northern run will include Thompson, Flin Flon, The Pas and Swan River.

The member had asked for specific data. I will try to give them very quickly in summation. The funding has gone from $244,000 in 1994 to $350,000 in 1998. The quantities have increased from 113 tonnes in 1994 to 431 tonnes in 1998. The hazardous waste days have increased from 27 in 1998 to 29 in 1999. [interjection] Madam Speaker, I am responding to a series of three questions. They did ask for it, and I did commit to bring it back. [interjection] They are telling me to sit down; I am presuming they do not want the information now.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. When a minister takes a question as notice and brings it back, indeed the response time allowed generally is within the same response time allowed for a regular answer to a question, which is one minute.

Mrs. McIntosh: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I was asked two questions, each with two supplementals, which, if the rules hold, would give me six minutes, I would presume.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Environment, it is her question, and I would suggest that she try to be recognized at a later point in Question Period for response to additional questions.

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Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I want to thank the minister for her answer. I am reluctant to ask her a question, however.

My question today is for the minister responsible for sustainable development. Two years ago, the government introduced a white paper on sustainable development that was rejected by virtually all the stakeholders in Manitoba. After passing The Sustainable Development Act, the government has now received a report from their advisory committee on the act, and the so-called COSDI Group stated, on reviewing the proposed developments, and I quote here: efforts are seldom made to co-ordinate decision-making processes, and there is often little concerted effort to ensure compliance with existing sustainable development strategies.

My question to the Premier: can the Premier explain why his sustainable development strategies have resulted in mountains of paper, but according to his own advisory group, are not being adhered to by this government?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): I thought maybe the member was ahead of me, but I think he is a year behind me. The COSDI Group has been meeting on a continuous basis since the last review of The Sustainable Development Act and has recently provided us with their recommendations for long-term sustainable planning in the province. Having just received that, as I am sure the member is aware, there are some far-reaching and significant recommendations. But there was a consensus reached, and I am disappointed that the member would imply that somehow the thoughtful and far-thinking counsellors and others who were consulted across the province were in fact rejecting The Sustainable Development Act. They in fact supported it wholeheartedly, and they want to work with us through the additional recommendations coming on the working group.

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Given that the document concludes that consultation with aboriginal people is substantially deficient and recommends that a protocol be developed, my question to the minister: will the minister immediately adopt this recommendation and apply it to the Pine Falls negotiations currently underway?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): I was right the first time. The member is out of touch.

The fact is, as I pointed out in this House about three weeks ago, Pine Falls Paper has indicated that they are actively pursuing additional input from the aboriginal First Nation communities and seeking their involvement in the future Pine Falls development. If that causes any aggravation to the members opposite, I am sure it is because they wish that they could find a fault with the process that Pine Falls is entering into, because frankly they are taking an enlightened and broad-based view of the future of the east side of the province and opportunities that they have for timber harvesting there, and they want to involve the First Nations.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, user fees in public schools have increased dramatically during the Filmon watch to the point where a single mother of four, Karen San Filippo, is completely overwhelmed. She has been forced to take on two jobs and borrow money from relatives so that her children can participate and attend our public school system. Will the minister admit that many children in Manitoba are being excluded from being fully participative in their public schools because of financial reasons?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): I can empathize with the situation respecting Karen San Filippo and her family, Madam Speaker, knowing that for everyone raising children in today's society it is a very challenging responsibility. I know that many, many Manitoba parents take that responsibility very seriously and want all that they can have for their children, and I certainly share with them that sentiment.

There is a policy respecting school fees and the basics in our schools are to be covered by public funding. I saw the article the other day respecting Karen San Filippo and her children and their expenses, and while they are onerous, they are onerous right across the province for those expenses in Manitoba homes. We provide funding through the school system and through the provincial grant system for the basics of education, and we do not want families like the San Filippo family to be overburdened to deal with the basics.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, does the minister believe that parents should be forced, and I quote from Ms. San Filippo, to beg or humiliate themselves in front of school administrators to ask for a helping hand?

Mr. McCrae: No, I do not think that is appropriate, Madam Speaker, not unlike the situation in Brandon where the school division was dealing with issues related to physical education and music. Parents and parent councils, which we very strongly support here on this side of the House, and teachers got together and raised the issues related to concerns they had, related to phys ed and music with the Brandon School Division. I see by the headlines today and the meeting I had earlier this morning that that may well not be the outcome, the one that was feared in the first place, and that is thanks very much to parents and teachers getting together to let their views be known, and also thanks to a school division in Brandon that I believe is very responsive to what it learns are the public's requirements, the public's demands and wishes for their children.

The honourable member's question goes to the whole issue of funding generally, and I was pleased to learn of the support of the New Democratic Party for–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, is the government then really prepared to admit that our public school system is underfunded and that perhaps they will be providing us with government subsidies to Manitoba families who cannot afford to send their children–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. McCrae: I am having trouble here, Madam Speaker, understanding where my honourable colleagues opposite are coming from. There was a 2.2 percent increase for education last year, 2.6 percent when you include the $2 million additional announced for special education this year and a commitment of 2 percent for next year. Honourable members opposite voted for that, so I am just having trouble understanding where the New Democrats are coming from.

A little while ago we were told that if there is an election and the New Democrats formed the government, the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans), the Finance critic, said the NDP would bring in their own budget, but they voted for ours. So what are Manitobans supposed to think about where honourable members are coming from?

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): When I listen to discussions about what is happening in the Interlake with respect to the sale of Crown lands, it appears that members of this government are prepared to look after their friends but ignore others. However, there are many people in other parts of the province who want to purchase the Crown lands that they are leasing, but that is not happening.

I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture why applications to purchase Crown lands in the Swan River constituency by people such as the Ravards and Shewchuks have been denied even though they are bona fide farmers who have cattle and are interested in expanding their operations, but their applications to purchase Crown lands are being denied.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): I am truly indebted for that question because it enables me to explain more fully how Crown land is purchased. First of all, the Department of Agriculture does not sell any Crown land. The Department of Agriculture may offer an opinion that a long-term lessor is eligible for sale. Then it goes to a classification committee of various departmental officials to the Department of Natural Resources. If there are wildlife concerns, or if the Minister of Highways has aggregate and gravel concerns and it is deemed not to be in the public interest to sell land, then that land is not sold. It is only after having been vetted through that process does Crown land get sold by the Department of Natural Resources.

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Ms. Wowchuk: I thank the minister for that information. I want to ask the government then: given that these people, particularly the Ravards, have met all those requirements, there is not anybody standing in the way–the municipality said that they did not oppose the sale–but the sale still is not going through, why are these people not allowed to purchase the leased land that they have while others in the Interlake that are friends of the minister are allowed to purchase?

Mr. Enns: I want to advise the honourable member that following that classification by senior bureaucrats that takes place and a decision is made, it is appealable, that decision, through the Provincial Land Use Committee of cabinet, of which my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) is chairman. I would suggest that if they are not satisfied with that designation, they appeal that decision to the Provincial Land Use Committee of cabinet.

Ms. Wowchuk: Given that the people who I am referring to have gone through all the channels, they have gone through the municipality and the municipality has removed their objection, they are still waiting for a purchase, they have not been able to get it, when is this government going to act and treat people in other parts of the province fairly?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): If I understand the question correctly that the member for Swan River is bringing forward, she is indicating that there have been objections that were involved from the municipality, and they have now withdrawn them. That may be the first part of the answer in relationship to this question, because where the municipality has local objections, their objections are very high priority in consideration of whether or not a sale would proceed.

Secondly, and this should be a very important issue for the member for Swan River, given that we now have a lot of agricultural Crown land that has merchantable aspen on it that can be cut for Louisiana-Pacific, there is an issue around the value of that aspen, there is an issue about whether or not it should be returned to aspen stand after it has been cut and a multiuse program put in place for both grazing and the return of the aspen cover. That is an important policy issue, and it is no reflection on the area other than the value of the wood on the property.

Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.