Physician Resources

Report Tabling Request

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, in June of 1997, a working group dealing with physician shortages and physician resources made up of citizens, health officials, doctors and members of the public provided a report to the Minister of Health to deal with the long-term plan to deal with these shortages. We believe the public should have a copy of that report, that the public should be engaged in the recommendations and this Legislature should be informed of those recommendations.

I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to today ask or require his Minister of Health to have the courage to make that report public a year after it has been produced for the government.

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, over the last year and a half that I have had the honour of serving in this portfolio, the issue of physician remuneration and retention has been an extremely dynamic one. We were faced with a walkout of emergency physicians last year that allowed us in a 90-day process to develop a new model that has stabilized that situation. We went on a major recruiting effort that has recruited some nearly 30 additional physicians to Manitoba that have plugged those particular holes. We have worked out an agreement on emergency doctors in Winnipeg that created for the first time a province-wide structure for emergency remuneration, and we are now into arbitration on a host of issues that are essential to retaining and recruiting family practitioners and other specialists.

So, to be blunt, I think time has overtaken any particular report. The situation has been dynamic and has been quite successful, particularly in the recruitment side.

Report Recommendations

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, this minister is so wonderful. We have health authorities from Brandon--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Doer: He is so wonderful. We have the community of Brandon raiding the community of Winnipeg for doctors. What kind of success is that?

We have Mr. Musick, a member of the committee, dealing with the immaturity of the present Minister of Health, saying that Mr. Praznik appears to think he can solve all the problems all by himself. He does not seem interested in engaging members of the community.

So, Madam Speaker, I will therefore table the physician resource report that the minister does not have the courage to do.

I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): which recommendations that were presented to the government a year ago are government policy, and which ones are not? The public deserve an answer and the courage of an answer from this Premier dealing with his immature Minister of Health.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I find it very interesting because the member for Concordia and his critic every day in this House attempt to blame myself and my colleagues for every problem in health care, and then when we attempt to resolve those issues in a fast way when we work with community organizations, when we work with regional health authorities, when we work with others to solve them, and we get success from time to time, then the member has to go down to the lowest denominator in his attacks on myself and others.

There is no simple solution to any of these problems. The member opposite complains about Brandon attempting to recruit physicians in Winnipeg. He should listen to his own members, because in this House they pointed out that we have surpluses of certain people in Winnipeg and need to have more in Brandon.

So, again, could the NDP party just for once get its story the same?

Physician Resources

Report Recommendations

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in a special publication provided by the Manitoba Medical Association, their regular monthly publication, they devote an entire subsection to the failure of the government to deal with physician resources.

An Honourable Member: This minister.

Mr. Chomiak: --and this minister. Rarely in my experience in this area have I seen a more critical piece that deals with contradictions and failure to follow up and lack of confidence than this piece that has been produced by the Manitoba Medical Association.

My question to the Minister of Health is: after several years, after these recommendations, after we have been forced to deal with strike after strike after strike and contradictory statements, can the minister outline what the status is of the recommendations, including the incentive program, the rural relocation program, the education initiatives that were announced and the program for post-graduate students? They were all recommendations of that committee to deal with the rural and northern shortages in Manitoba finally.

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Is it not surprising that a party that prides itself on being a party of labour does not recognize that in a period of negotiations, that, Madam Speaker--and the document he refers to--we have just agreed to an arbitration in the last few weeks. I suspect that that document was part of the political campaign among its members that any organization particularly launches when they are developing their position. Members opposite know that. They try to sound naive coming to this Assembly. They are members who know it all too well.

The fact of the matter is there have been many good things happening in the area of physician attracting and retaining physicians. They never mention the fact that through our initiative we attracted nearly 30 additional doctors to Manitoba in this year to fill the holes in the system. They do not mention the fact that we are working with the university to identify training opportunities for those who graduate to be able to go into rural and northern postings before they have to declare their specialty. They do not mention any of those things, but they are happening. They are real, and they are working toward solving the problem.

Contract Physicians

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Will the minister, I suggest, read this report which outlines contradictions between his department, the previous minister, his deputy minister over and over again and downright inaccuracies with respect to the program?

I would like to ask the minister a question that was a series of letters, at least 12 letters, between the department and the MMA about why the government is prepared to fund foreign South African graduates with contract positions in Manitoba but is failing to inform Manitoban graduates and others and fund those contracts for Manitobans so that they can relocate to rural and northern Manitoba and inform this House as to why Canadian doctors cannot take advantage of the same program that those foreign doctors can take advantage of, including Canadian doctors who are foreign trained.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order. Perhaps of the three questions the honourable member has asked, he could direct which one he wants us to answer.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Was the honourable government House leader rising on a point of order or the right to ask a question?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, on these supplementaries, the direction we have is to ask a question. The member asked three. Which one does he want answered?

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan, on the same point of order.

Mr. Chomiak: I believe the honourable government House leader does not have a point of order, and in fact it is a dispute over the facts.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, indeed the honourable government House leader does have a point of order. A supplementary question is to have no preamble and consist of a single question.

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): It is hard to have a dispute over the facts when the member for Kildonan does not have the facts, Madam Speaker, to be blunt, because what he is saying is simply not true. Contract positions are available to any physician who is prepared to accept them. There has never been a restriction placed on this is only for South African recruits. The fact of the matter is the South African doctors who have come to Manitoba want, by and large, to work on that contract position. In fact, in communities where they have gone into fee-for-service relationships, they have usually chosen to leave because they have not been comfortable in that relationship with their fellow physicians.

So, Madam Speaker, those positions are in place for everyone, and I would remind the member as well that, through the efforts of the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), we have negotiated an agreement with the university that will allow a number of their grads to go into practice after graduation and before they have to declare their specialty for up to three years. That is a first ever. We have been doing these things and they are real. They will put and are putting more physicians into rural and northern Manitoba.

Physician Resources

Recruitment Strategy

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I wish to table for the information of the Minister of Health some of 1,600 signatures which we collected with very little effort, I might add, asking the minister not only to go to binding arbitration, which has now occurred, but also to ensure that we implement a physicians resource plan to have an adequate supply of physicians.

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The minister knows full well from the rally that we held in Brandon of the depth of concern and feeling about the shortage of doctors in Brandon and rural Manitoba. If he gave the answer that he gave to this member, they would have run him out of the hall. They would have run him out of the Keystone Centre.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Brandon East please pose his question now.

Mr. L. Evans: On behalf of the hundreds of people that appeared at that rally, on behalf of thousands of people in rural and northern Manitoba and indeed among all people in Manitoba, will this minister now finally realize that there is a problem and, instead of patting himself on the back, guarantee that he will take some effective action to ensure that we have an adequate supply of doctors to Manitoba?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have never seen such a display of someone trying to pretend they are not in the real world. The member for Brandon East does not even want to acknowledge that, through the efforts of the department working with the RHAs, we were able to recruit nearly 30 additional doctors. In fact, we had so many who were prepared to come to Manitoba, we actually provided their names to other jurisdictions who needed them, because we filled the positions that were there. We have talked about that; we talked about it at the meeting in Brandon.

An Honourable Member: Nobody believes you, Darren.

Mr. Praznik: I do not know where the member for Brandon East is, and the Leader of the Opposition says no one believes me. Go to the communities where those doctors are. They are there. Get into the real world.

Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, this honourable minister has to refresh his memory of the questions--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question.

Mr. L. Evans: The minister has previously said that the regional health authorities should be more responsive to the recruitment efforts of the government, but does this mean, is he suggesting that the RHAs should be going out competing one another for some very scarce resources to obtain sufficient doctors in the various communities? When will he realize that the shortage of doctors, and I speak especially for Brandon and Westman, is real? When will he take some responsibility to deal with this?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member for Brandon East, who has been in this Legislature since 1969, should remember that the responsibility for recruitment has traditionally not rested with the Minister of Health, not rested with Health authorities, but for clinics and physicians within communities.

I ask him: where was the Brandon Clinic in recruiting pediatricians? They had two that were the largest billers in the province. Is it surprising that they were not recruiting a third? Where was that responsibility?

The member totally does not want to recognize the realities of the past. We have stepped in and responded and said that there is a responsibility that we are prepared to take with RHAs. We have gone out and recruited, and we have created contract positions. We have worked with RHAs to recruit. We are taking and have taken the steps that the member asks for, but where is his criticism of those who had responsibility in the past?

Victims' Rights Amendment Act

Victims Benefits

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Justice minister. A few weeks ago the minister introduced victims rights legislation. He said how proud he was to table a bill to advance the rights of victims of crime. He said, and I quote: this new legislation ensures we never lose sight of the harm done to individuals by crime.

After we studied the bill in detail, Madam Speaker, we were shocked. My question to the minister is this: is the minister also proud that the bill eliminates for victims their death benefits, retraining allowances, the clear provision for maintenance of a child born of a rape and the legislated formula for benefits? Why did he not so much as mention this when he introduced the bill?

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Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the committee considering that bill will indeed examine all those issues, and the committee will have an opportunity to discuss that.

We know that this member has brought a number of cases before this House where the facts simply were not correct. Indeed, the other day he stood up and admitted the--he did not know the facts even though he was making allegations.

So, Madam Speaker, in respect of this particular bill, we will deal with it in committee.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Beauchesne's 417, I think, is very succinct and to the point, that the minister's answer should deal with the facts of the questions raised. I listened very carefully to the question of the member for St. Johns, who clearly asked the minister why he did not make mention in his bill of the serious rights that have been eliminated from Manitobans. The minister answered that question in the first part of his preamble, and then went off on his usual tangent of attacking the member for St. Johns on a whole series of unrelated matters.

I ask you to call him to order and either answer the question--if he does not want to answer the question, he can sit down.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I do not know why the honourable member for Kildonan would suggest that the rules for members on his side of the House ought to be different and more special than the rules for honourable members on this side of the House. He takes offence that the honourable minister might somehow chide or scold the honourable member for some of the positions taken by the NDP, and yet it is quite acceptable for that to come from his side of the House.

Madam Speaker, I think our skin is getting just a bit thin on some of these things, and in any event, there is nothing in Beauchesne that I know of that would point to a point of order in this particular instance.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, the minister did respond to a portion of the question, but in my opinion in the end did contravene Beauchesne 417 by provoking debate.

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Mr. Mackintosh: A supplementary then: why does the minister not tell Manitobans what he is actually doing to victims by this bill, and that this government is also cutting the time to apply for benefits in half, is eliminating a level of appeal, is threatening victims with an arbitrary cap on benefits? Why is he somehow neglecting to tell Manitobans he is gutting our victim compensation system?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the particular bill was the subject of a lot of consideration within the department. Indeed, the member knows that the Prairie Research Associates did a long study in respect of victims legislation and made certain recommendations. Indeed, the member specifically asked us to follow those recommendations and that if we did not, he would. We have followed many of those recommendations, and if the member believes that there are oversights, certainly that is the--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, if there are issues that need to be addressed, certainly they can be addressed in committee where there will be an opportunity to hear from the public, to hear from the members, and certainly this House will give consideration to any worthwhile suggestion.

Mr. Mackintosh: Given that answer, would the minister, instead of fantasizing about our views on recommendations about the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board by Prairie Research Associates, now admit that he is indeed following their recommendation to gut victim compensation and eliminate benefits, put caps in, give cabinet jurisdiction and discretion rather than legislation? For what reason, Madam Speaker? Because it is recommended that these changes recover additional revenues. It is the bottom line. Would he admit it?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the Prairie Research Associates conducted a very detailed study which I understood the member for St. Johns supported. Now, for some reason, he appears to have changed his mind, and I do not know what has caused that. But--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

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Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, Prairie Research Associates made certain recommendations to the department that would, in their opinion, enhance the delivery of services to victims. This government has consistently enhanced the rights given to victims, including the $225,000 program that is done on an annual basis to support victims programs in seven communities, including some of the communities that members opposite represent.

Gaming Facilities

Cash Machines

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Lotteries. We are now seeing further expansion of banking machines known in the private sector, and a great deal of concern is where these new private sector banking machines could be going, or cash machines, if I put it that way. My question to the Minister responsible for Lotteries: can the minister indicate very clearly as to the position of the government with respect to banking machines and proximity to VLT machines?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I think the member for Inkster knows the restriction that is currently in place as it relates to utilizing debit cards in licensed establishments that have VLT machines, that that is not permitted. An individual cannot utilize their debit card at a hotel lounge or other facility that has VLTs, get cash and then go and play the VLTs. That would be a breach of their agreement, their VLT agreement, and any breach of the agreement leads to suspension and potentially ultimate, complete elimination of the machines.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, is it safe then to assume that you cannot, for example, have a VLT lounge and down the hall a cash machine?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we do not control where organizations and the banking industry decide to put in place various bank machines in malls and other jurisdictions, but I think the important point is the point that I have already made for the member, that in any licensed establishment that has VLTs, the owner or proprietor of that establishment cannot allow a patron or a customer to come forward, use their debit card, get cash and play the VLTs. That is not permissible. That is a breach of the agreement, and there are penalties that would be imposed against the owner of that establishment if they breached that agreement.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister responsible for Lotteries to recognize the gray area, where you can literally go outside of the lounge, walk a few feet and there will be the debit machines. Is the minister prepared to take that particular issue to the Gaming Commission so that the government is in a better position to take a position on that issue, because surely the government recognizes the correlation between proximity--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I am not sure that that is something that we could necessarily regulate, other operations, organizations in a mall, for example, wanting to put in place a banking machine with the support of that particular banking operation.

I think he should certainly pay attention to comments made by individuals like the executive director of the Addictions Foundation that does indicate there is still a difference. I mean, the key being that, if a person does believe that they need to get access to more cash, they would still have to leave the facility, and if I recall correctly what the executive director said, he does believe that is beneficial. It gives that opportunity to that individual to determine whether or not they really do want to access some more cash or whether they should perhaps head home or go and do something else, Madam Speaker.

So there still is a significant difference between being able to access cash right in the immediate facility as opposed to having to leave the facility to access cash. I am certainly prepared to provide the member with more information on that issue.

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Poulin's

Public Health Act Compliance

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, yesterday I raised the case of Mr. John Janzen who suffered methyl bromide poisoning and now suffers myoclonic seizures and is confined to a wheelchair. The Department of Justice plea bargained away 75 percent of the charges against the company, including one against the company manager. The use of methyl bromide requires an annual use permit administered by the Department of Environment.

My question is for the Minister of Environment. Since the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer) on April 14 this year advised me that the Environment department was made aware of this case, did the Minister of Environment or his department recommend to the Justice department that charges be laid under separate issue under the Public Health Control Regulation 323-88R once you learned that Poulin's did not have a user's permit while continuing to use methyl bromide? I will table the regulation that affects the use of methyl bromide.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I will ascertain the role of the Department of Environment in this matter and report to the honourable member.

Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question then to the Minister of Justice, because the Minister of Environment obviously does not know the issue.

Can the Minister of Justice then answer: was your department contacted by the Environment department to lay charges against Poulin's for breach of The Public Health Act which states: no person shall use methyl bromide unless that person holds a valid permit to do so, issued pursuant to the regulation, and is subject to penalties of up to $5,000 or up to three months in jail?

Was your department informed by the Department of Environment of this matter? I will table copies of the penalty section that applies to this case.

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as the member last day indicated that there were a number of charges laid against Poulin's, I assume that the Crown attorneys looked at the best charges in respect of this particular situation.

I know that the Crown attorney in the particular case has provided me with a briefing, and I would advise the member that if he wants a detailed explanation of the reasons why the Crown took the position they did in this very, very serious case, I know that the Crown or other members of my department would be more than ready to sit down with the member in order to give him the true facts of this situation.

Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, a final supplementary to the same Minister of Justice then or to the Minister of Environment or anyone in the government who can answer.

Can you confirm that Poulin's failed to take out this permit and that they failed to notify the rural municipality involved--the community of Elie was involved in this particular case--and that there is a requirement under the regulations under The Public Health Act of Manitoba that state that medical officers must be advised that this product is in use so that the proper precautions and protections can be put in place? Why did your department fail to make sure that this company had a permit and that the proper authorities were notified so that public protection could occur? Why did you not protect the public?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I have said that I will ascertain the role that my department played. The honourable member, though, asks me to confirm something, on the one hand, and then, in his second question within a question, assumes that it has already been confirmed. So I think we will take it one step at a time and deal with this thing in a compassionate way and in a way that gets out the real facts.

Manitoba Lotteries Corporation

Promotions--Vintage Locomotive

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I would like to table a letter from the Vintage Locomotive Society, which I believe the Minister of Tourism also may have received, I received this morning. For 27 years, the locomotive society's members have provided thousands of Manitobans and visitors with a chance to ride into history on the oldest operating steam train in North America. That train's future is in serious doubt now. We are at risk of losing this unique link with our past and the enormous tourist potential that goes with it.

Will the Minister of Tourism today acknowledge that their plan to force the Vintage Locomotive Society into an alliance with the Lotteries Corporation is wrongheaded and that the volunteers of the society have already expressed grave reservations about being used as part of a marketing campaign to increase gambling at McPhillips Street Station by using the train as a draw?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I will not confirm anything at this particular time as I know there have been a group of people, particularly of the heritage locomotive society, that have been working very diligently and are to be complimented on trying to retain that piece of heritage in the province of Manitoba. We have also been working with them through the department, and Lotteries as well have been doing some work as to whether or not there can in fact be some work done as it relates to preserving that piece of heritage and providing the opportunities for it to operate as a tourism attraction in the province of Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, I will await the report from both Lotteries and my department before I comment further.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the government tell the Lotteries Corporation that they cannot and should not and must not operate a second train in competition with the Prairie Dog? Whether it is another steam train or a diesel train does not matter. Will they tell them they are not to go into competition with the volunteers and compete for the attention of the public for a historic train ride in whatever direction?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, first of all, I should point out that it is the objective of the province and those working with the heritage locomotive society that we do in fact preserve a piece of heritage in our province and that it is used in a productive way to enhance tourism in the province of Manitoba. There have been a group of people working on this objective. Until I get a more complete report, I certainly cannot take anything from the member for Crescentwood as fact. As for the rest of his colleagues, they do not really know what it is in most cases.

Prairie Dog Central

Lower Fort Garry Route

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my questions are also for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and they follow up on my colleague from Crescentwood.

Will the government agree that the preferred route for the Prairie Dog Central is to run to Lower Fort Garry, where, in combination with river boats, visitors could experience a round trip from Winnipeg to Lower Fort Garry and experience our unique history of river and rails?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, that is one of the options that is being considered by the group of individuals who have been charged with this responsibility. It could be an option, and again I leave it to those people who have been working on that project. I will not sit here or stand here and direct that something happen. There are a group of responsible people that are working on the options that are available for the Prairie Dog Central, which I believe we all would like to have operating in the province of Manitoba, adding to the overall tourism package that is available to the people who come to this province.

Future Usage--Pan Am Games

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, will the minister commit today to a nonpartisan approach to ensuring the train and the society's survival, to sit down with the society, sit down with the officials from the federal government, from local governments and local MLAs, and commit the necessary resources so that the train is running next year for the Pan Am Games?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As usual, Madam Speaker, I will bring a nonpartisan approach to all of the activities that are carried out within my responsibilities.

Madam Speaker, I will continue to endeavour to work with the committee, all those individuals involved, so that we can in fact maximize the use of the Prairie Dog Central, maximize the tourism opportunities and preserve a piece of history which is very important to the province of Manitoba.

Video Lottery Terminals

Revenues

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): My question is for the Minister of Finance. Sharing revenues from all sources--liquor, tobacco, VLTs, mining, income and corporate taxes--is the Manitoba way. However, it is difficult to understand this government's proposal of forcing or penalizing communities who choose to eliminate VLTs by having them lose their share of that revenue.

My question to the Minister of Finance is: what does the minister have to say to the urban municipalities in Manitoba who indicated in their recent news bulletin that they resent the fact that the government took no consultation process in introducing VLTs and expanding them into virtually every bar and now are holding them basically hostage by threatening to withhold their share of that revenue?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the government is not holding anybody hostage. We are very proud of our record when it comes to dealing with municipalities in this province, in terms of some of the policies we have in place, where we are the only province in Canada that shares our personal income tax, our corporate income tax and so on.

The specific issue that she raises, she is well aware, I believe, that the independent Gaming Control Commission right now is soliciting input from Manitobans. They have a proposal before Manitobans. They are taking the next several weeks, in terms of public meetings, offering opportunities to meet directly and also soliciting input directly to them through the mail or e-mail or so on to get input on this very important issue. As well, I believe they will be consulting with the municipal organizations, the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities on this very important issue, so we will await their report and their suggestions.

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Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my final question: will the minister admit that by having municipalities threatened or believe that they are going to lose their share of the revenue basically closes down an open process? Will he, like the Alberta government led by Ralph Klein--even they saw wisdom, reversed their decision--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member for St. James does not seem to understand what is currently taking place. She talks about reversing decisions when no decisions have been taken at this particular point in time. There is a process right now. In fact, she has the opportunity to make representation to the independent Gaming Control Commission if she so chooses. They are meeting in communities like Brandon, Winnipeg, Thompson. They are soliciting input on this very important issue of potentially having plebiscites here in Manitoba, and if plebiscites are held, what would be the ramifications to communities who decide to remove VLTs and so on.

So there is a consultation process taking place. That is something we certainly support. We support listening to, hearing from Manitobans, hearing from organizations. If she has some strong views on the issue, I encourage her to make a representation to that commission.

First Nations Communities

REDI Funding

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, on a regular basis I rise in this House to point out to the government about the double standards that they employ when dealing with First Nations people in Manitoba.

On May 29, in a letter to me from the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), which I would like to table today, the minister tells me that First Nations are not eligible for funding from the REDI program because they are already getting gaming revenue.

My question for the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is: if using that logic and carrying it further, then why did Steinbach in 1996 receive over $150,000 when there are no VLTs in Steinbach? On top of that, REDI program funding went to Steinbach, to a Steinbach entrepreneur.

Hon. Frank Pitura (Acting Minister of Rural Development): I will take that question as notice for my colleague the Minister of Rural Development.

Mr. Lathlin: I have one more question, Madam Speaker, and that is to the First Minister: why does his government say every day here in the House and out there in public that they would like to work in a partnership way with First Nations one day, and then the very next day they tell us that we are a federal ward? How can you establish a partnership relationship that way?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, my understanding of the way in which revenues flow to First Nations under our gaming agreements, which we have signed with about 30 First Nations, is that they get 80 percent of all the revenues from VLTs, as opposed to all other areas of the province in which they get 20 percent of the revenues. So they get four times as much funding by signing that agreement, so they are beneficiaries to a far greater extent.

If the member opposite is suggesting that we ought to enter into a change in that agreement to reduce their share to 20 percent, we will take that under advisement, but I am sure that his citizens in the First Nations in The Pas and other areas would be very upset with that. We do enter into dialogue and we do enter into discussion with the members of First Nations, but I will point out to him that it is by their choice, for instance, that they choose to work directly with Ottawa and leave us out of the discussions, for instance, on devolution. The First Nations said, no, the provincial government has no responsibility at the table with regard to those discussions. In fact, their relationship is with the federal government, so they are the ones who are dictating that they do not want us involved in those discussions. He cannot have it all ways.

City of Winnipeg

Tax Reforms

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, this morning the Committee on Tax Reform, chaired by a name very familiar to all members of this House and the citizens of Manitoba, Mr. Clayton Manness, gave to the City of Winnipeg a document entitled Rethinking Taxation: Making Winnipeg Competitive, where, surprise, surprise, the committee chaired by the former Minister of Finance and the former Minister of Education in the Conservative government made no acknowledgement, said not one word in that report about the impact that this provincial government's taxation policies, five years ago, have had on the City of Winnipeg and its ability to raise revenue that it needs--not only the City of Winnipeg, but the rest of the province.

I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) if he will not acknowledge that the government's programs to cut $75 from the property tax credits and to cut as much as $150 from the senior school tax assistance programs by this very minister, former Minister of Education and of Finance, has led to some of the tax problems facing the City of Winnipeg. What does he plan to do about it?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Well, without accepting most of the preamble of the member for Wellington, I hope she does get an opportunity to read that report that was tabled today, because I think there are some very important aspects to the report. One that she should make note of is some information that says based on 1996 financial statements and Statistics Canada population data, Winnipeg received over $240 per capita in government transfers. In comparison, Calgary received $77, Edmonton received $47 and Saskatoon received $71 per capita. All fair analyses to date show that no major Canadian city does better than Winnipeg with respect to cash transfers from the Province of Manitoba. That is what the report says, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wellington, with a very short question.

Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) not acknowledge that the people of Manitoba and the people of Winnipeg do not believe this government when they talk about taxation systems and fairness, because they know, and this report does not reflect the fact, that the province has been systematically cutting support services, putting user fees onto taxpayers and forcing the City of Winnipeg into untenable financial situations, which the former Minister of Finance in this government refuses to--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I am not sure the member has read the entire report. I just read her one excerpt that outlined very clearly the treatment that the City of Winnipeg gets compared to other major Canadian cities. As well, as I responded to her earlier, we are the only province in Canada that shares our personal income taxes and our corporate income taxes with municipalities, including the City of Winnipeg. As well, we have a six-year $96-million capital agreement with the City of Winnipeg, approximately $16 million a year, to enhance infrastructure in the city of Winnipeg. As well, in the 1998 budget, we put in an additional $5 million for a residential street program here in the city of Winnipeg. Those are some of the facts in terms of the fair treatment that the city of Winnipeg receives from this provincial government.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

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