Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates for the Community Support Programs. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman, a relatively brief opening statement.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to make some brief opening remarks on the 1998-99 expenditure Estimates for Community Support Programs. The role of Community Support Programs is threefold; firstly, it provides management and co-ordination of grants through government departments; secondly, it provides access to community organizations seeking information on funding and, as well, may provide grant assistance to organizations who do not meet normal funding criteria within the system; and, its third component is to monitor and evaluate the nonprofit community organizations who do receive funding to ensure compliance to the original objectives of these organizations.
Community Support Programs provides an accountable, efficient, accessible and flexible system to support nonprofit organizations in the context of quality of life development. Through Community Support Programs, the government of Manitoba is able to support such diverse cultural and tourism attractions as the Festival du Voyageur, Folklorama and the Manitoba Stampede. It, as well, provides funds to cover the administrative and fundraising costs for the United Way campaigns throughout Manitoba.
Festival du Voyageur provides a unique showcase for Manitoba's French-Canadian heritage while attracting over 200,000 spectators and participants. Festival du Voyageur supports 140 jobs and adds over $5.3 million to Manitoba's gross domestic product annually. Folklorama boasts the largest multicultural festival of its kind in the world with its various pavilions celebrating the rich ethnocultural mix of Manitoba's population. Folklorama was named the organization best depicting Canadian culture by the World Tourism Organization and a few years ago was named as the No. 1 tourist attraction in Canada by the American Bus Association. With its 20,000 volunteers, Folklorama directly and indirectly adds $10.8 million to Manitoba's tourism economy.
* (1440)
The Manitoba Stampede in Morris, Manitoba, is one of Canada's top rodeos. It provides the opportunity for Manitoba's up and coming rodeo riders to compete with the best in the world right here at home. In 1997, it attracted over 40,000 people through its gates, with 10,000 of those being visitors from outside Manitoba, making it one of the largest annual tourist attractions in the province.
The United Way was able to raise and distribute over $10 million for more than 68 agencies in 1997. Because all administrative and fundraising costs of the United Way are covered by funds provided through Community Support Programs, its volunteers are able to guarantee that every dollar donated flows directly to the beneficiary agencies involved.
In a related area, Community Support Programs, in partnership with the Manitoba Government Employees' Union, provide staff-related funding in support of the government employees' All Charities campaign. In 1997, this campaign raised over $880,000 from Manitoba government employees' contributions in aid of the charitable organizations of their choice.
Mr. Chairman, today I am pleased to have been able to highlight just some of the groups and organizations who benefit from funding through Community Support Programs. As the minister responsible for Community Support Programs, I am proud to ensure these funds are being used for the benefit of all Manitobans to enhance the quality of life in communities large and small throughout our province.
I thank you for the chance to say a few words. I look forward to answering any questions.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the official opposition critic have an opening statement?
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): No, Mr. Chairperson.
Mr. Chairperson: At this point, we would invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we request that the minister introduce the staff members present.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, joining me is Mr. Jim Berry, who is the director of the Community Support Programs.
Mr. Chairperson: We are now on page 24 in the Estimates book, item 33.1. Community Support Programs (a) Administration and Grants (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $189,300.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I have a few detailed questions. I hope the minister is in a position to answer them all as these Estimates are being considered on very short notice, so it may be that he needs to consult before being able to answer some of them.
I want to ask about the United Way level of expenditure. It is odd--I am not making a pejorative statement--but it seems strange that the Estimates for last year and the Estimates for this year are absolutely numerically identical, and yet the purpose of the grant is to cover all of the costs of the United Way. It would seem strange to me that the costs are identical in two years within $100. Could the minister explain whether indeed it is all administrative costs or whether it is a grant in aid of administrative costs?
Mr. Stefanson: I appreciate the member's opening comments that there may be some instances because of short notice, I will have to provide additional information. In this particular case, the administrative cost for the United Way of Winnipeg, and I believe some 22 other agencies throughout rural Manitoba are covered. This does cover all of the administrative costs. The reality being we have ongoing discussions with the United Way and they ensure that they live within the amount of money provided. So the member refers to the fact the number being the same; obviously, the United Way will make adjustments within their overall administrative expenditures to be sure that they are living within the amount of money that is provided to them.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, this may seem like a minor point, and it probably in a sense is, but I was on the United Way board when this arrangement was approved. I guess that would be somewhere around 1970. Oh, it must be about 1975 or '74, or somewhere in there when we first approved it. It was very clearly at that point to be a recovery of administrative costs. That would imply a submission and an audit, or a vetting or an approval, and then a reimbursement much like we used to do under the Canada Assistance Plan, where there would be a bill submitted. Indeed it might come to pass, as it did in many cases, that some aspects of the bill might not be approved. This does not seem to be the case, and I cannot tell from Public Accounts, because Public Accounts as the minister knows are rolled up in a different way. So you cannot go back and look at the previous year as to what was actually spent because it is not revealed. So that was, in fact, going to be one of my other questions. I would invite the minister's comment on that.
Mr. Stefanson: My understanding is back in '89, a funding analysis was done, and at that point in time five-year agreements were put in place starting in 1990 with many entities, of which the United Way was one of them. During that five-year period, there was a holdback provision that was provided at the back end of the process after verification and analysis of all of the financial information. That agreement expired in 1995, and we do have new agreements with many organizations, again, of which the United Way is one.
The current agreement with the United Way does run until the year 2000. As the member indicated, it is to cover the administrative and campaign fundraising costs under the five-year agreement, but the funding is reviewed every year, so we receive a budget at the beginning of the year from the United Way. We then pay them on the basis of a monthly payment equivalent to one-twelfth of the funding provided. Then, basically, a form of audit is done at the end of the process in terms of getting their audited financial statements and doing a review of their administrative costs and ensuring that it complies with the original intent and the original agreement that the funding would cover all of the administrative and fundraising costs.
So to date, Mr. Chairman, that has worked very well. The United Way are living within those agreements, and the amount of money being provided is covering those administrative and fundraising costs.
Mr. Sale: Thank you, that was a helpful answer. The difficulty, as the minister knows, is that when you are into these kinds of programs, you cannot get anything out of Public Accounts. It does not tell you how the monies were spent. It just tells you, in reference to budget, whether it was over or under in a number of headings, and the headings bear no resemblance to the headings in the Estimates book. It is an issue I have raised in Public Accounts. The minister has responded to, I think, not in an unfriendly manner. It simply is not possible to go from budget to Public Accounts and make any sense from an accountability perspective as to whether the government has done anything other than live within the total envelope approved which, of course, it must do.
* (1450)
Again, for the record, and the minister may not be able to support this request, but I would request again for the record that where an Estimates expenditure budget is approved in the amount--this year, for example, $6,254,000, that the Public Accounts, if they must retain the same roll-up that they have now, should at least have an additional roll-up that allows us to examine what monies were provided to the various groups from (a) to (j) and whether or not there were any recoveries or overexpenditures in any of the subcategories.
It is very difficult for opposition, at least, to approve Estimates which have headings and then to see in Public Accounts none of those headings. You really have no idea whether the grants, as anticipated, were paid or whether other grants were paid. The minister may or may not have a comment on that. It is a request I have made before.
Mr. Stefanson: I do not have a copy of our most recent annual report here, but I certainly believe that that report provides most, if not all, of the information the member is referring to, but having said that, he raises a valid point in terms of the amount of detail in Public Accounts. I think even though we have not agreed on everything, we have made various improvements in terms of some of the reporting of Public Accounts. We are always interested in looking at ways to do that, so I will certainly take his comments in this area seriously and determine whether or not there is other information we should provide in the Public Accounts.
I think one part of our reporting relationship that maybe is not as well utilized by all members of the Legislature, without pointing fingers at any one individual or party, often is a lot of our annual reports that do provide fairly extensive information in terms of comparing actual expenditures to budgeted and, obviously, then provide a significant amount of information about the overall performance either of that department or that area of expenditure.
Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. He, of course, is quite right that I did not pull the annual report, and I should have probably done that in the few minutes we had after we got notice of these Estimates, but that is probably a very reasonable response.
It is also true, though, that government departments do not--there is no process for dealing with annual reports, and that is also something the Provincial Auditor and the minister and others have struggled with, as to whether there ought to be a process for dealing with annual reports in our annual review of government activities.
I want to ask about item (g). I believe that the Community Services Council is administered by the United Way on behalf of government in effect. It is a separate organization housed within the United Way's--at least it was, so let me just clarify whether that is still the case, and I have another couple of questions about that.
Mr. Chairperson: Is it now the will of the committee, then, to move around within the Estimates? [interjection]
Mr. Sale: Could we just consider it all as a whole? Sorry, I was never ever on (a); I was on (d).
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Crescentwood, then, to put his question.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, can we agree that we will consider this 33.1. as a whole as opposed to an (a) and (b)?
Mr. Stefanson: I agree, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairperson: Okay, it is agreed.
Mr. Sale: Could the minister clarify who administers the Manitoba Community Services Council? In the past, I believe it was administered, at least initially, by the United Way and was, at least, housed in the same building and shared some staff services. What is the current status of that organization?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is correct that the Manitoba Community Services Council was brought into being in 1983 as an offshoot of the United Way at that time. Its role is to fund worthy Manitoba nonprofit organizations which serve the social and community service area.
However, in 1990, at the same time that separate agreements were entered into with various organizations that we have already discussed, an agreement was entered into with the Manitoba Community Services Council. They now have their own staff and, obviously, function on very much of a stand-alone basis, and they do operate at arm's length from government through that funding agreement that they have with the province of Manitoba.
The members, I believe, are appointed for a three-year term with an option to stay if they hold elected office, and the 17 members of the council are appointed by a committee made up of the past chairperson of the Manitoba Community Services Council, along with a representative from the Province of Manitoba and two individuals who are not members and who are active as members of province-wide nonprofit organizations. In addition, the chairperson appoints two members of the Manitoba Community Services Council to this committee. So that is the nature of the organization and the process for the appointment of board members.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, then, is the minister saying that this council essentially has no membership beyond the legal meaning of the directors who are also members? That is, it is not a membership organization, it is a self-appointing body that government has an agreement with, but it is not representative of the groups to whom it gives money except insofar as it might draw directors from it, but there is no membership, no controlling or voting or policymaking role. It is a freestanding, separate corporate body as a nonprofit corporation.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member for Crescentwood's (Mr. Sale) description is an accurate one. Having said that, various organizations will put forward names, but it is not done on a formal basis. Names are not necessarily selected to the Manitoba Community Services Council from a list provided by the organizations, but, again, because of the relationships with different organizations, it is not uncommon for representatives from a particular organization to be at least submitting names to this nomination committee, so there is, I believe, on an overall basis a good working relationship. But the member's description is accurate that these bodies do not get to appoint members directly to the council, and there is no requirement to choose members from any particular service organizations.
Mr. Sale: How many staff does MCSC have at the present time?
* (1500)
Mr. Stefanson: I am told that their staffing complement is one executive director and three support staff. Beyond that, they then contract for any particular expertise or any work that is required. But that will be one of those questions that I will ensure I have provided accurate information and get back to the member.
Mr. Sale: Does the council receive any other funds from any other sources that it disburses?
Mr. Stefanson: The council receives, as noted in the Estimates, $1,980,000 of cash for allocation to service organizations. They also allocate bingo events with a value of $800,000. So, in effect, they are distributing almost $2.8 million, and the agreement with them is that their administrative costs cannot exceed 10 percent of their budget. So, again, I can certainly undertake to provide additional information in that area, but there are limitations on how much can be spent on administration to ensure that the maximum amount is ultimately going out to these other service organizations and community projects.
Mr. Sale: This is not an area that I have had critic responsibilities for, so I may be quite ignorant here; probably am. Does this organization put out an annual report?
Mr. Stefanson: Yes, they do, and I believe that the amount of detail provided in the annual report goes so far as to list every organization that receives support from the Manitoba Community Services Council. So it is very comprehensive in terms of that kind of review to see what organizations are being supported.
Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. I must look up that annual report, because it is not one that I am familiar with.
To then return to the United Way because, in my mind, these were linked, although I now understand that they have been separate for some years, if I am not mistaken, in the minister's opening remarks, he indicated the United Way raised and distributed in total across the province--the various United Ways--somewhat in excess of $10 million this year. That would suggest that the administrative costs are around 20 percent or 22 percent, depending on how much over $10 million it was. That is a high percentage.
When I was a board member of the United Way, we prided ourselves on having admin expenses in the 7 percent region. No United Way in Canada at that point of any size--some of the small ones had higher proportions, as you might expect--but no United Way of any size had expenditures of over 10 percent for administration. There was quite a competition, in fact, at the management level and the board levels of United Ways across the country to keep expenditures for administration at under 10 percent for the obvious reason that donors do not like their money to be going to administration. They want them to go to the charities that they think they are supporting.
That was the selling feature of this agreement in the first place. It was a sanitizing of lottery money, which everyone had some concern about, or bingo money or whatever it was at the time--I guess it was lotteries at that time--and it was also a kind of cachet for the United Way to be able to say that every dollar you give goes to the charities.
For the historical record, there were two of us who voted against that agreement. I was one of them at that point, on principle. I do not like lotteries; I never have. When you start using them to fund public services, it has always made me twitchy, so the minister knows where I stand personally at least on that, at that point some, what, 24 years ago.
Does the minister consider the level of administrative cost to be a concern at the present time?
Mr. Peter Dyck , Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Stefanson: First of all, I am told that the reference to $10 million, I believe, is Winnipeg only, so that figure would be slightly higher as a result of province-wide donations. Having said that, the member is still accurate in terms of the ballpark of total administrative percentages.
We have this discussion every year with the United Way, and really their objective is similar to ours: to try and ensure that the maximum numbers of dollars go out to the other organizations, to the community support initiatives that are funded through the United Way. So we are in agreement with the objective. They point to various issues that do put pressure on some of their administrative costs--the whole issue of fundraising and the competitiveness of fundraising right across Canada today in terms of all kinds of organizations from service groups to arts and cultural groups and so on. So that is one area of pressure on their administrative costs, but I am certainly prepared to get as much information in terms of a more detailed breakdown of the various components and share that with the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). I am sure he would then willingly provide his comments as to whether or not he sees any areas of concern with more detailed information.
He is correct. As a percentage, it is at the upper end relative to many other organizations. But I think what would be most helpful for him might well be if I provide a greater breakdown of the various components of those administrative costs.
* (1510)
Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. I would say honestly I do not particularly want to have that information because the United Way actually does a very good job of putting its budget out, and it has an audited statement every year. It is clear they are spending their money on administrative costs. It is not a suggestion that they are spending it inappropriately. It is just that I wonder if it is a good idea to keep the costs for disbursing the funds to MCSC to 10 percent. I wonder whether it would not be wise to put a ceiling on the United Way of some percentage that reflected the fact that it has to raise the money as well as disburse it, rather than leaving the amount apparently open-ended. Apparently there is no cap, and it may just be time to think about whether there is a limit to which they should agree and not go over. I leave that for the minister to consider.
It may not be a wise thing, but it just strikes me that when your fundraising and distributing costs are getting over 20 percent--Revenue Canada, for example, has a guideline that says that 20 percent is the maximum that Revenue Canada generally likes to see. I know this would not be breaching that because this money is not being receipted back to donors, so it is not a Revenue Canada issue, but that is a guideline that they think is reasonable. Many other United Ways in Canada would have to live within that general guideline. It would be interesting to know what other United Ways across the country are spending in total in terms of their fundraising costs. I do not have that information. I just raise it more as a matter of accountability than anything else. I do not necessarily need a response to that, but if the minister wishes to comment.
Mr. Stefanson: I do not really disagree with any of the comments made by the member for Crescentwood. I think we do agree that the United Way does a good job, and it is not a matter of suggesting that they are not spending their administrative dollars appropriately or that they do not have requirements at this level. But I think his suggestions are appropriate ones, that we always want to ensure that they do compare favourably with other organizations, and if they have unique requirements, that we are aware of them and we recognize them, and so on. There might well be some very compelling reasons why the administrative costs here are higher than other organizations, possibly like the Community Services Council, but if that is the case we should be well aware of that and recognize that. So I do not disagree with his comments. We will follow up with some of the suggestions.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the grants to the Festival du Voyageur and Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg, both major tourist attractions and, I think, in many ways even more important because they engage the huge number of Winnipeggers in community building and community celebrating, I think they are at least as important for that reason as they are for their tourist attraction function. I think that how you build a city's and a community's sense of who it is, is to define ways to come together around celebrating gifts and diversity. So these are excellent, almost whether or not they gather a lot of tourists from outside the city, they are worth it in their own right for ourselves to lift up our gifts and our diversity.
I wonder whether these organizations are receiving other grants from other departments of government and if the minister could indicate what the total receipts for Folk Arts and Festival du Voyageur are from the various government departments, because I believe that Culture Heritage has a function here. I think there are other groups that also provide funding to them.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will have to get some more details, but my recollection with both of these organizations--the Festival du Voyageur and the Folk Arts Council--is this is the only area that provides what I will call core support or base support for these organizations. Having said that, I believe both of them at various times have had support for specific initiatives whether they are tourism-related initiatives or other kinds of projects.
I am just looking at the annual report for the Folk Arts Council of Manitoba, and there is a separate line item for the support from the province provided in this area, and there is no indication of any other provincial support. Having said that, there are other categories that there could be some support outlined in other grants and so on. So my recollection is this is the core support for their ongoing requirements but that both of these organizations may well have received other forms of support over the last few years. I am certainly prepared to follow up and determine within the last year or two or whatever period of time that these organizations may have received some other forms of support.
Mr. Sale: Could I ask the same question for the Valley Agricultural Society, if the minister could just add that one, as well, to that list? I believe that is the Morden or the Manitoba Stampede at--was it Carman? Morden?
An Honourable Member: Morris.
Mr. Sale: Morris. Thank you. Morris. We will get it right yet. My apologies.
Mr. Stefanson: Yes, I will, and I would make exactly the same comments that certainly as far as I am aware sitting here today, this is the only area of this kind of support, but that is not to say they might not have received some support for a particular initiative. I will certainly do that with all three of these organizations, go back over the last couple of years and see if there were any specific initiatives supported by government.
Mr. Sale: If we could look, Mr. Chairperson, at (f), this was an area in which new legislation was passed. I think last year was the change so that the transparency was increased in terms of the support for harness and flat racing in Manitoba. This probably is--I do not know if this is the first year that this has appeared this way, but I think the total remitted is something over $3 million, if the minister could indicate the total remitted under the parimutuel levy in addition to this grant.
Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct. I believe it was last year that the legislation was changed and the parimutuel tax was eliminated. The old process was that we would collect the parimutuel tax and we would basically rebate it back to the industry through the Horse Racing Commission. I would have to get him the precise number of what the last full year was. I think it was a little less than $3 million, if I recall, probably. I was going to say about $2.6 million or $2.7 million, but I certainly would stand to be corrected. I think we are in agreement that that is the range of where the parimutuel levy was. That is no longer the case, as the member knows. There is now a levy that goes directly from the wagering at Assiniboia Downs to the Horse Racing Commission to cover their costs.
This allocation here, I think as the member knows, is really the support only for the quarter horse racing and the standardbred racing. The majority of this has been in place for several years, again, with the majority of it being allocated to the Great Western Harness Racing Circuit that takes place throughout rural Manitoba. I would have to get the precise number of how many communities they go to again. My recollection is that they were in the 11 or 12 range in terms of numbers of communities and in the numbers of event days and so on. So really the majority of this funding is historical for those two areas, although there has been some slight upward adjustment in the last few years as the harness racing industry has continually looked for a more permanent venue.
* (1520)
Mr. Sale: The reason I raise it is because I think, as the minister knows, the viability of this circuit and harness racing is very much dependent on the viability of Assiniboia Downs, in a significant measure, although this is a small circuit that moves around. Nevertheless, the harness racing business that feeds that, at least historically, has used Assiniboia Downs as a very major place for its training and quartering, and there has been a fall or a winter meet there which provides that kind of underlying viability. At least that was my understanding from Mr. Johnson's report that harness racing was very much dependent on the Downs.
My understanding most recently is that betting at the Downs is declining again. It was blamed last year on the flood which may indeed have had some bearing on betting at the Downs, but I think more importantly across North America, racing in smaller centres has been less and less viable, and numbers of tracks have closed.
As the most recent report in the Winnipeg Free Press a week or so ago noted, the age of everybody involved in that industry seems to be increasing, the average age. Mind you, all of our ages are increasing, but we hope on average we are not getting older as a society, but the average age of those involved is increasing apparently. The volume of money bet is down, and the only reason that the Downs survive is because they have a very special deal with VLT revenue that allows them to take a much higher proportion of the VLT take than a hotel or any other private facility in Manitoba.
So I wonder whether or not there is any process for reviewing this grant and whether the minister has a view as to how this industry is faring in Manitoba at the present time and whether or not we are going to be facing a continuing declining base for this industry in the future.
Mr. Stefanson: I just want to correct one point on the whole issue of harness racing. They have not raced at Assiniboia Downs for at least one, if not two, years, and part of what they have been working on is an extended meet, I believe, at Portage la Prairie. They did that last year and I believe they did it the year before with a view to try and find a permanent home for harness racing that is not necessarily Assiniboia Downs, so that certainly has been the case the last year or two.
This funding, as I have already mentioned, of $501,000 is now a consolidation of funding from the provincial government, some that used to be in different departments. I know Agriculture had a small allocation that they made to this particular area for harness breeders and so on. It is now all consolidated into this one line item, and, as I said at the outset, it really supports just the harness racing and the quarterhorse racing and primarily the Great Western Circuit at the 12 communities.
So this part of the industry is now very much separate and distinct from the thoroughbred which is, of course, the industry that is at Assiniboia Downs, and I am sure the member will have the chance to get into it in some greater detail with my colleague the Minister of Industry (Mr. Downey) because the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission still falls under his area of responsibilities.
But my understanding is that wagering is more or less flat the last year. There might have been a slight dip, but it had more or less stabilized, although I have to admit that most of what I picked up in the last few weeks has been through the media. The Winnipeg Free Press wrote an extensive article a week or two ago talking about the upcoming season. I believe they are up to some thousand horses which is either, I do not know if it is at a record level, but they are back to the kinds of levels that they have had in prior years, and, certainly, the old facility and the industry and so on appears to be doing better than most in Canada. There are several reasons for it. Certainly, the support provided through the VLTs is part of that.
I think the thoroughbred industry and Assiniboia Downs recognize that. But at the end of the day, this sector, this industry, makes a very significant contribution to our economy; directly and indirectly, I believe provides employment for well in access of a thousand people. As the member himself indicated, it goes well beyond just Assiniboia Downs. It goes out into many communities right across our province in terms of the breeding and raising of horses and so on.
So it is a significant industry within our province, and a way of life for many people in our province. But I thought it was important to make the distinction that now exists between the harness and the quarter horse, the racing support and that industry with what is happening in Assiniboia Downs and the thoroughbred industry.
Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that clarification. When I last talked about this issue in Estimates a year ago, at that time apparently the question was still out as to whether they would re-establish at Assiniboia Downs or not. I am interested to know that they have kind of decided to go their separate ways, so that, I hope, is a good thing for both parts of the industry.
I wanted to just ask on (j), Mr. Chairperson, Council of Community Centres, is this a new grant or is this a transfer in from another appropriation that was made under another appropriation in other years? It looks like a new grant.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, this did change last year and at the request of the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres and with the concurrence of the Manitoba Community Services Council that we already discussed, the Winnipeg Community Centres now deal directly with the General Council when making funding applications. It used to be through the Manitoba Community Services Council.
So under the terms of a three-year agreement that is now in place between the government and the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres, the province provides the GCWCC with $200,000 in assistance annually, of which $50,000 are for programs for youth at risk and $150,000 is for capital projects. The new agreement frees up approximately $143,000 per year that the Manitoba Community Services Council can now use to fund other agencies.
So, in effect, the money is no longer funded from the Community Services Council, but that money was not clawed back from the council. Their group total funding was left at the same amount, allowing them to have an extra $143,000 to provide support to other agencies, recognizing the amount of requests that that organization receives, and at the same time, the funding under this category was topped up to $200,000 in terms of support for the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres, in large part to fund this new initiative of programs for youth at risk, which I know are now being run at several community centres throughout Winnipeg.
So the Manitoba Community Services Council, while relinquishing its responsibility to fund community centres in Winnipeg, does remain the funding agent for nonprofit groups throughout Manitoba. So it was with the support of all of those organizations, and certainly my understanding is it is working very well, and the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres is very pleased with the arrangement and pleased to be dealing, in this case, directly with government.
Mr. Sale: So, Mr. Chairperson, just to be clear about the math that the minister was referring to, was the previous year's grant within the Manitoba Community Services Council for community centres approximately $143,000, and this year it has been raised to $200,000? Is that what I am to take from the minister's comments?
* (1530)
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the change actually took place in 1997-98. So even though the Estimates here show, as the member indicated, the appearance of a new grant in 1998-99, the actual change did occur in '97-98 whereby $200,000 was provided directly to the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres, and no money was clawed back from the Community Services Council. If you go back to 1996-97, the funding provided by the Community Services Council to the Winnipeg community centres was approximately $143,000. So I think that is clear. It is just that the change actually did take place subsequent to the actual budget in '97-98, but that was the first year where the agreement was entered into, and the $200,000 was provided directly to the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Sale: I am not at all being critical of that; I was just trying to understand whether the implication here was that there had been an increase over the last couple of years for community centres in Winnipeg, and I think the minister referenced a youth-at-risk initiative which is a good initiative. I am certainly glad to see that kind of preventive programming going, but I was just trying to clarify whether there had been an increase and the approximate magnitude of it.
Mr. Stefanson: The short answer is yes, there has been an increase. The average funding was $143,000 up to 1996-97. Starting in '97-98, the funding is now $200,000, so the increase was approximately $57,000 starting last year.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I would not have assumed that the Manitoba Community Services Council would fund only Winnipeg community centres, but it would be clear that the Winnipeg council would only fund community centres in Winnipeg. Is there funding for community centres in other communities continuing under that council, or do they not fund any centres outside Winnipeg?
Mr. Stefanson: Outside of Winnipeg, there is no comparable organization to the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres, so individual community centres can make application to the Manitoba Community Services Council, and they still do. Then those applications are reviewed by the Manitoba Community Services Council, and by looking at the annual report, we can certainly see what community centres outside of Winnipeg receive support from the council. So that opportunity is there for them to get support.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the minister referenced a program, youth-at-risk program. I do not know whether that is its name and particularly whether it is a Justice initiative or whether it is a Family Services initiative. Whose initiative is that program?
Mr. Stefanson: It is a program of the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres utilizing community centres throughout Winnipeg and providing some funding from this source. I would have to find out for the member what they are calling the program, and I certainly can do that. I know they have informed community centres across our city of the program and the opportunity to access some support from the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres, but it is a program basically launched and organized by the GCWCC.
Mr. Sale: I had seen references to this at (i)(4). I think I may be unique in my riding in that I have four different community clubs in my riding and a piece of a fifth, so I have a lot of community clubs. I have seen references to the program, but I did not know it was a Winnipeg council initiative. I was thinking it was a government initiative of some other kind. So that is good.
Mr. Chairperson, I have no other questions in this area, with one exception. That is back up in (a) under Administration. I believe the minister may have indicated that there were three staff. That is certainly indicated in the Supplementary Information. Could the minister indicate who are the staff and what are the different positions that are within that three?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Jim Berry, seated beside me, is the director of this area, and so that is one of the positions. Mr. Ted Wilton is the associate director. Joyce Narine is the administrative support, secretarial. That is the total of the three positions outlined in the detailed Estimates.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, what are the classifications of Mr. Berry and Mr. Wilton?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will undertake to provide that detail for the member.
Mr. Chairperson: 33.1. Community Support Programs (a) Administration and Grants (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $189,300--pass; 1.(a)(2) Other Expenditures $31,900--pass; 1.(a)(3) Grants $318,700.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, in this area are there separate grants that are to a myriad of little organizations? The big ones are detailed. Is this a list of very small grants?
Mr. Stefanson: The short answer is yes. The largest grant provided is the one I referred to in my opening comments to provide staff-related funding for the All Charities campaign within government, and that is about $90,000 out of this allocation. The rest would be a series of smaller grants.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, could the minister supply the committee with a list of these grants? It is a little bit, if not--"misleading" is not the right word, but it is a little strange to have a subcategory of Grants in part (a) Administration and Grants, and then to list specific grants, some of which are quite modest, such as the Valley Agricultural Society, which is approximately half of what the All Charities campaign cost was. It just seems like a strange way to present it. Perhaps the minister could give us a list of all of the disbursements under that line, if he would.
Mr. Stefanson: The reason for the breakdown in the detailed Estimates is historical, because those are all of the organizations that had agreements from 1990 to 1995, and then they had renewed agreements. So that is why they are listed, even though as the member points out, Valley Ag at $50,000 is roughly half of the All Charities. The All Charities was never a separate funding agreement with the government.
* (1540)
I certainly have no problem providing the detailed breakdown of what was done in 1997-98, and, as I have indicated, the largest commitment moving forward for this year is the support from the All Charities campaign.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 33.1. Community Support Programs (a) Administration and Grants (3) Grants $318,700--pass; 1.(b) Festival du Voyageur $319,800--pass; 1.(c) Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg $301,000--pass; 1.(d) United Way $2,216,300--pass; 1.(e) Valley Agricultural Society $50,000--pass; 1.(f) Harness and Quarterhorse Racing Support $501,100--pass; 1.(g) Manitoba Community Services Council $1,980,000--pass; 1.(h) Winnipeg Football Club $346,500--pass; 1.(j) General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres (1) Grants $200,000--pass; (2) Less: Recoverable from Urban Economic Development Initiatives ($200,000)--pass.
Resolution 33.1: RESOLVED that it be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,254,600 for the Community Support Programs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
This completes the Estimates for the Community Support Programs
The next set of Estimates that will be considered are the Estimates for the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program. Shall we briefly recess to prepare for these Estimates? [interjection] We do not need to, so we will go right on.