4th-36th Vol. 36A-Committee of Supply-Energy and Mines

Motion agreed to.

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Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 23.1.(c) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 47 of the Estimates book.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Mr. Chairman, I believe we were in the midst of getting a response from the department on a question I had just presented.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): My Hansard for April 21 says the last question by you was: "Out of a total complement of how many? I am looking for a percentage." My answer was: "Seven out of 32."

Ms. Mihychuk: Yes, I have found the Hansard, and I was in the midst of asking a series of questions on affirmative action and goals and strategies that the department may be making. Can the minister indicate what plans and initiatives are planned to increase the number of women geologists for the department?

Mr. Newman: The nature of the affirmative action strategy with respect to achieving a better proportion of affirmative action candidates, including women, is through summer employment programs, where the goal is to achieve a level of 50 percent affirmative action candidates being hired and through career symposia involvement of the department. For example, the Rotary career symposium at the Convention Centre focused on not just students but mature candidates for employment outside the school system. The department was there with a booth promoting jobs for affirmative action candidates.

The turnover rate in the geology functions in the department is not that great. Since April 1, 1996, there have been three new geologists hired in the department, and all three were affirmative action target group members. The chief geologist, sedimentary and industrial minerals, was female, the petroleum geologist was female, and the regional geologist, Thompson, was visible minority. So we have achieved a hundred percent over that period of time to illustrate the degree of commitment and the interest of capable candidates to fill the positions.

Ms. Mihychuk: How many female geologists has the department lost since 1995?

Mr. Newman: We have lost since April 1, 1995, subject to validation, my staff's best knowledge at this time--and we will, maybe over noon hour, confirm that--two male and two female geologists, and there is one geologist vacancy.

Mr. Peter Dyck , Acting Chairperson, in the Chair

Ms. Mihychuk: One of the pressures of geology, unfortunately, say probably more so intensely for the women geologists because of our social structure, is the separation from young children and families for extended periods of time. What provisions are being made to accommodate geologists with young families in that what can be a very lengthy field season of up to four months away from the family? Are there considerations for providing accommodations for families in those situations? I think that really what you are looking at is a very unfavourable situation for a family and for that parent.

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Mr. Newman: We have no policy as a department that precludes females or even males bringing a child who has a dependency need with the parent into the field, as long as they provide whatever support is necessary so that they can carry on their work function in a normal course.

Ms. Mihychuk: In situations in other departments, for example, Natural Resources, where the park rangers have living accommodations, I believe, in provincial parks, I think the practice is to include families. Are those employees required to somehow subsidize their family's expenses, or is that included in the field operation?

Mr. Newman: I do not want to answer for the Department of Natural Resources. Maybe you can go to Minister Cummings' Estimates process and put that question or have one of your colleagues get that information directly from his department.

Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister be open to looking at what provisions are made for civil servants who give up their families for extended field seasons and look to providing similar supports for those families as is the practice in other departments?

Mr. Newman: Absolutely. We are looking for best practices that are consistent with being effective workers and effective parents. Whether they are within government or outside government, the department is interested in any of those kinds of arrangements that work and contribute in that sort of way, and because you have raised it specifically with respect to Natural Resources, the department through the deputy minister will make sure that that is examined and will determine whether there is anything relevant that is being done there that might be usefully imported into our department in a modified form or as it is.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, Mr. Minister, I must congratulate you. Even the decision to look at that availability is a major step, in my opinion, to making the department more responsive for the needs of geologists and their families and other field support. I know on behalf of my colleagues, that they will appreciate that type of consideration. It is long overdue. I know that there have been circumstances where it has been extremely difficult leaving families and has caused severe problems in their home life. So if something like this--I do not know the circumstances in Natural Resources. I do know that they do field seasons. If the minister is willing to look at better practices, I think that would go a long way in increasing, boosting morale, providing better service for Manitobans and having a much stronger and unified department, so I do sincerely thank you for that measure. I sense a high degree of sincerity, so I think that deserves congratulations and I look forward to some changes there.

I am virtually ready to leave this section. I have one more question on the Mining Reserve Fund. Can the minister tell me, have in the past, let us say since '89 or maybe even since its inception if we had those records, have there been any other years where money has been withdrawn and put into general revenue, Consolidated Revenue Fund?

Mr. Newman: No.

Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 23.1. Administration and Finance (c) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $622,500--pass; 1.(c)(2) Other Expenditures $158,100--pass.

23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (a) Marketing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $817,400.

Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, just for clarification, we are now in the Marketing Branch, are we?

Mr. Newman: I am wondering, would this be the appropriate time, honourable member for St. James, to respond to unanswered questions which I now have the information for before you move onto the next section?

Ms. Mihychuk: That would be fine with me. Absolutely.

Mr. Newman: The question was under the new desktop management initiative, how many times has the department contacted the central system for assistance? The answer is that during the period January 1 to February 18, 1998, a total of 79 requests for assistance were made. The breakdown, and you have mentioned Gismo, the term here is breakdown of trouble tickets is: Administration and Finance 14; Marketing 8; Petroleum and Energy 23; Mines 14; Geological Services 20; for a total of 79.

The other question related to travel expenses, and you wanted an exact figure of the travel costs for the minister, including airfare, meals, hotel, taxi, registrations, membership, miscellaneous. The total expense is $6,810.34.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Okay, before we proceed, because we went back to that line that had already been passed, I would just like to advise the members of the committee that the correct procedure for considering items in the Committee of Supply is in a line-by-line manner. In order to skip ahead or to revert back to lines already passed, unanimous consent of the committee is required. So do we have unanimous consent? [agreed]

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Ms. Mihychuk: Is it appropriate now to ask a couple of questions leading from that statement?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): We have unanimous consent. Yes. Certainly. Go ahead.

Ms. Mihychuk: The $6,000 of travel expenses relates to the line under Executive Support where we had budgeted $30,000. Is that correct?

Mr. Newman: Yes.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, apparently it is significantly overfunded as a budget line. I am wondering if we are looking at some new initiatives this year or is the money redirected in some way, or it goes as a departmental surplus?

Mr. Newman: Maybe this will help and it might cause some other questions but, just to clarify, the breakdown of the transportation budget allotment of $30,000, first of all, there is a breakdown between the minister's office and the deputy's office. The minister's office breakdown is $17,600 and the deputy's office is $12,400. It does not just include commercial or charter airline travel and associated expenses. It also involves government vehicles, mileage, the scheduled public air and charter air. But there is a government vehicle component which is spelled out for the minister's office, $4,000; for the deputy's office, $4,000, in itself; and, more specifically, the scheduled public air and charter air allotment of the $17,600 is broken down: $8,000 scheduled public air and $5,000 charter air.

Ms. Mihychuk: Maybe for clarification it would be perhaps fair to say that this transportation allowance also includes travel for the minister's other duties including Hydro and Northern Affairs.

Mr. Newman: Hydro, yes, but not Northern Affairs.

Ms. Mihychuk: Then the allocation for the vehicle of $4,000 annually is also a line item in the Northern Affairs budget or that is covered by the Department of Energy and Mines.

Mr. Newman: I am advised that represents half of the entire allotment of $8,000; so it is $4,000 for each department.

Ms. Mihychuk: Did the minister indicate that there was $8,000 in public air transportation?

Mr. Newman: The breakdown was scheduled public air $8,000, charter air $5,000.

Ms. Mihychuk: That $13,000 for air support for public and charter, that is for trips that the minister and deputy take related to energy and mine business alone?

Mr. Newman: That is correct.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, if I remember correctly, Mr. Minister, it seems to me that there was, in the past year, a fairly limited number of trips that the minister took; four trips, I believe, were identified. My question would be: are there maybe other individuals using this account or perhaps there were trips that were not identified previously?

Mr. Newman: What you are seeking is in addition to the trips, what happened to the difference between $13,000 and $6,810. The only trip that I did not mention to you previously, besides the Vancouver-Calgary-Toronto and Cambridge Bay trip, was from Calgary. I went to a Hydro symposium in Minneapolis, but that is the only additional one. The difference between $13,000 and $6,810, I will have to get further guidance on.

We would have to do some more work to get the detail, because really the original question was the portion which was spent on marketing activity. There is, for example, the Energy and Mines ministers' conference in St. John's, Newfoundland, last year, and that was in July. So that would have been an item of cost which would be part of the $30,000, and the deputy would have gone to that, too.

Ms. Mihychuk: That does help bring things together a little bit, but I would ask the minister if it is possible for the department to just perhaps provide the information as to a full sort of accounting of that transportation allowance for the record, because right now it seems to be a hole, and I think it would be useful to clarify where that money is going.

Mr. Newman: We will try and get that for you for this afternoon--[interjection] It cannot be done for this afternoon. They have to go through the records of all the trips, so we will undertake to provide you with that information in a timely manner, and if the Estimates process concludes, we will, of course, undertake to provide it to you, in any event, promptly.

Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, I am ready to move on to the Marketing section.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Okay then, under 23.2.(a) Marketing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $817,400.

Ms. Mihychuk: This is a fairly large branch in the department, an initiative that the previous minister took a great deal of pride in. There was expansion in this section--we see 17.5 staff members, a considerably large budget, $1.25 million, so I will be asking a number of questions in this area. Can the minister indicate whether this expenditure, in his view, in a broad sense, has been a worthwhile endeavour or are there plans to review the Marketing Branch in the department?

Mr. Newman: The general answer is more of the same but better, and the enhancement that is being focused on this year is the aboriginal mining initiative, the effort to establish a protocol, a code of practice for effective positive relationships and understandings between the mining community and the aboriginal people of Manitoba who relate by geography, interest or otherwise to exploration and mining in the province.

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Ms. Mihychuk: The aboriginal mining initiative, I did notice it, but I noticed it under the Mines Branch. I am very interested in this new initiative. Perhaps the minister can present what this program is all about.

Mr. Newman: I respond that it is part of Marketing, because Marketing is the author, the creator of what was the eight-point mining strategy which received considerable national and international attention as one of the best programs for Marketing, a jurisdiction for mining in the world, certainly in the country.

We have added a ninth point, which is the aboriginal component that I have just referred to and, yes, it is the Mines Branch that is going through the process, the workshop process, the partnering process of coming up with the content, the flesh of that ninth point.

Ms. Mihychuk: Does the minister wish to elaborate on this project then in the Mines Branch?

Mr. Newman: I think that is the appropriate place to address that.

Ms. Mihychuk: One of the issues that is always raised by the mining community and the exploration people as well is the uncertainty about land tenure, when, in the North there are several areas or several issues that have not been fully resolved, treaty land entitlement, and in our case, we have one Northern Flood Agreement. But we also have things called, I understand, community interest zones and we have resource management areas. These other two initiatives provide some, I guess, uncertainty as to their status or their intention. Can the minister articulate what those other two provisions or land classifications mean to mining?

Mr. Newman: This is a big question in terms of the type of answer that it engenders. I could go on at such great length, it would do a disservice to this process to overburden it with details. So let me try and address it in a general kind of way and then, with subsequent questions, you can indicate whether or not I am hitting the mark in the relevant ways you expect. I will break it down into two components.

One is the process which is underway pursuant to treaty land entitlement and even, to a certain extent, the Northern Flood Agreement in 1977 and the comprehensive settlements. There are identifiable areas which, pursuant to the treaty land entitlement agreement which, pending the final land selection by the bands in the implementation of the treaty land entitlement agreement in principle are areas that mining explorationists have a degree of uncertainty about, and the certainty that does exist is that outside those zones which are known. We even have maps that show these zones for the benefit of mining communities even on the Internet, but to the extent that they are operating within those zones they do not have certainty as to which way ultimately the band, which has the right to select within that area, will make its decisions in terms of selection.

Mr. Chairperson in the Chair

From the First Nations perspective the good news is that they are looking at choosing the best lands with mineral potential, and from the mining company perspective they of course would like to maximize the richest opportunities that their geology tells them is available. The good news is that there is an obvious benefit from both groups to partner and try and maximize the advantages for both. We are going through that kind of learning exercise now by First Nations communities. Because we consider it so important, the theme of our last Mining and Minerals Convention in large measure, one of our major themes was the aboriginal content, and both Grand Chief Francis Flett of the MKO and Ron Evans of Norway House were speakers, as you know, at that conference and shared their perspective, so the explorationists, mining companies and other community people involved in mining had an opportunity to get a better understanding of the perspectives. It is another reason why we have the ninth point to the strategy.

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With respect to the Department of Natural Resources and the whole area of issues of co-management and issues of meeting the World Wildlife Fund targets, there was a protocol agreement that was signed involving the Department of Natural Resources, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and the MKO earlier, a month or so ago, at which I and Minister Cummings were present. It was in essence an agreement to work together to select protected areas which would affect aboriginal people in the North, to try and achieve in representative ways the ecosystems of the province under the initiative, to at least meet and exceed the 12 percent target for the province.

That was quite a landmark agreement because it is a very co-operative effort. I know that both the First Nations, our department and Mr. Cummings' department received accolades from the World Wildlife Fund for entering into that sort of relationship. I might say that was a product of a lot of discussion and meetings and what I think is a real statement about the enlightened approach to the mining industry in Manitoba. One of the members of the board of the World Wildlife Fund, because of his vast knowledge and very significant educational qualifications at the doctoral level, Ed Huebert, the executive vice-president of the Mining Association of Manitoba, is there on the national board of the World Wildlife Fund, so there is this comfort that the philosophy and the values that grew out of the Whitehorse mining accord, reflected by the incorporation of the principles of sustainable development in our mining act, are in good health in Manitoba and are working in the ways that are of mutual benefit of aboriginal people and the mining industry.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell me which department is responsible for establishing resource management areas?

Mr. Newman: The Department of Natural Resources.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is it also true that these are areas where there is a collaborative or a multiparty committee which sits to deal with resource management issues, including mines?

Mr. Newman: We are consulted and we have input, but we are not directly involved in their creation.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is it the intent to have ongoing committees that meet to deal with resource management issues?

Mr. Newman: Maybe I should clarify. The department has a very great interest on behalf of mining exploration to make sure that there is an ability, a freedom to enter into areas after giving appropriate notice. So we are vigilant in relating to the role of Natural Resources in restricting in any way the capacity and freedom to do mining exploration. We are very much involved in monitoring what is happening in that area.

Ms. Mihychuk: Maybe I can indicate what I understand them to be. I understand them to be areas where there is a collaborative attempt between resource sectors as well as the First Nations community in that area in that there has been an attempt, as my understanding is, to establish a liaison or a committee with the local bands and representatives from the resource sectors that may impact in those resource management areas.

It is also my understanding that the department had a representative attend some of these meetings but has not attended for the past two years. Is that true?

Mr. Newman: Our interest in mining, our responsibility for mining, when it is on the agenda, would attract and invite the involvement of our department. I am advised that most of the focus has been on wildlife management and forestry issues which are not within the ambit of our department.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister aware that there are two mining companies in a resource management area in the Cross Lake area?

Mr. Newman: You might have to share with me who might be there. As far as we are concerned, there is a freedom to do it because there is not even a co-management agreement there, let alone any agreed upon restriction on mining exploration or even a requirement to give notice as a courtesy. Our department has been attempting, using its best efforts, to encourage the mining explorationists to give notice in meaningful ways.

That is one of the reasons why, as we will discuss later, the ninth point in the mining strategy is so important, so that there will be a reciprocal sensitivity and understanding, and expectations will become known and generally accepted. That is why we want to go through that kind of process to achieve that kind of result, not an imposed thing but something that is done by the enlightened self-interest, good will, courtesy and application of values from both good corporate citizens on the one hand and their employees and the members of the aboriginal communities and their leadership as well.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister aware that there are two exploration companies, to my understanding, that are exploring in resource management areas that have not consulted the appropriate First Nations communities, and, in fact, this is an issue that is causing some concern by the local community?

Mr. Newman: My staff advise me they do not know, and if you could maybe give some more specifics, maybe my department would be able to address the specific explorationists, but we do not have any knowledge of what you are talking about at the moment.

Ms. Mihychuk: I am very hesitant to actually name the companies because, of course, they are in the business to explore and, hopefully, find a potential deposit. That is their business. I do not wish to somehow impede on that activity. However, I am very concerned that there are two exploration companies within a resource management area. In fact, one of the companies has received a MEAP to assist in the exploration, and I would be glad to speak to the minister in confidence, provide him the names of the companies, but this is of serious concern. The minister talks about a sincere approach to reach out and work co-operatively, collaboratively with First Nations people, and in this case I think that they have been betrayed. There are two exploration companies who are actively exploring in areas that are close to First Nations communities and have not consulted the communities, have not gone to the resource management committee, if such a thing exists, and are raising some serious questions about the sincerity of the minister's so-called reaching out, especially in this particular area, and it is of particular concern.

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Mr. Newman: Well, just as you are reluctant to divulge the names of those companies going about their business, I am reluctant to get involved in telling companies how to go about doing their business as well.

However, I had the temerity and the commitment to aboriginal people in the North to the degree that I spoke in Toronto at the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada's annual meeting at a breakfast I hosted at 7 a.m. on Monday, March 8, and I might say, to my delight, Chief Roland Robinson, Vice-Chief John Muswagon, and their mining consultant and band member--and well-respected band member--John Angus Thomas were at that event, as were certainly many of the major mining companies and exploration companies who were doing business in Manitoba.

As I indicated in my opening remarks, in that speech, by way of offering advice, I said: Before I conclude my remarks, I ask your indulgence to permit me to give you and the civil servants employed by the Energy and Mines department some advice about the changing expectations and indeed culture of the North. In listening to me, bear in mind that, just as I am your partner in being successful for the benefit of Manitobans, I am also a partner in a good faith relationship with the people and the ecosystems of northern Manitoba. I dare say those people and those ecosystems expect the following from civil servants in my government and those explorationists given the privilege of entering their traditional territories and communities: (1) humility, not arrogance; (2) respect, not intolerance or discourtesy; (3) honesty and good faith, not anything less; (4) genuine, ongoing communication, not just give notice, and also I said, expect no surprises; (5) maximum opportunities to participate in the jobs, training, education, and wealth-generation potential associated with mining exploration and development.

I further went on to say: Is this a new culture to adjust to? You bet it is. Those civil servants and explorationists who adjust first and best will be the most successful for themselves and for the benefit of all Manitobans.

I have repeated that on more than one occasion and alluded to it in my opening remarks in this process. To the extent that individual explorationist operations, companies, individuals on the one hand and aboriginal people on the other hand are not accepting that advice, that is their right and privilege, but it would be with considerable disappointment that that would happen because it is simply not common sense, it not courtesy and it is not as principled as I would like it to be.

I am also reminded, and I was reminded by the official opposition and reminded by the band, that when I assert a principle-based or a value-driven approach to something, and I put that in writing to the chief and council and indicate that I share those beliefs myself and I practise them to the best of my capacity, I was accused by the honourable member for The Pas, Oscar Lathlin, and I was accused by the chief and council of somehow talking down to them or insulting them by doing that.

I had no such intentions, but that was how they chose to receive it to such a degree that when I attended in Cross Lake and met with the chief and council in a very carefully constructed process, a very controlled process, where what I could say was very restricted in accordance with the script that they wanted to follow, I was asked in the process to apologize for that letter. I explained the purpose of it and its intent, and I said that to the extent that I have hurt or insulted or shown discourtesy to anybody by that letter, it was not intended, and I unequivocally apologized for it. The band was asked by the chief whether they would accept that apology in the community hall, which was full, and they unanimously agreed to accept that apology, and that was a matter that was history.

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So I just point that out to show how sensitive people are about the articulation of these kinds of things, and what I would say today about this kind of strategy and what I would say today in response to your questions related to this very specific thing, these are very sensitive kinds of things, and that is why we have this ninth point to the strategy. We have to have people, emphatically, from Cross Lake because they have a potential mine on their doorstep.

We have a great need as a province and the First Nations bands--and, again, I have to be careful because I was told in Cross Lake by Vice-Chief John Muswagon that I should not use the term First Nations in relation to the community. He preferred the term aboriginals to describe the people in the community. So that community wants it described that way, and other communities, many of them, most of them so far, have wanted First Nations, so I am trying to do things as perfectly as I can, but everyone has their different perspective on these things and sensitivity.

This is why we want a participatory process through workshops, interaction between mining explorations and the people from Cross Lake and other communities to contribute, to develop, to own the ninth point of our strategy, which would be a reciprocal set of expectations, each for the other.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, Mr. Chairman, this is a very serious and important area that I wish to continue on, but I guess on a matter of personal business, I would ask the indulgence of the minister to move away from this subject and provide my honourable colleague an opportunity to move into Energy and ask some conservation and energy questions. I have a pressing constituency issue, and I know that the Chairman does as well.

So although we are in the midst of a very, very serious and important issue, I would ask the minister's leave that we be able to come back to this this afternoon in Estimates, and I may be able to provide the minister with more detail if he needs it and ask for the unanimous agreement of the committee to move to Energy.

Mr. Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent to move to 23.2.(b) Petroleum and Energy (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, with the understanding that we will revert sometime during the process? Is there unanimous consent?

Mr. Newman: I agree. The honourable member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) will speak for himself, though.

Mr. Chairperson: I take it that there is unanimous consent. [agreed]

Mr. Newman: I think the honourable member for Arthur-Virden's ears perked up, and he looks forward with great interest to hearing the discussion about energy and the wonderful benefits of the oil industry in southwestern Manitoba.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Thank you for allowing me the chance to come in and ask some questions and get some ideas from the minister on a topic that is of very much concern for me. I should also add that it is the concern of some of my constituents who approached me on the topic of, not so much energy, but energy conservation, energy efficiency and alternate sources of energy. The one constituent that approached me has just recently retired from his occupation. He told me that now that he has retired, he has lots of time to think of all kinds of ideas in terms of conservation and energy efficiency. So I hope he is a little bit of a source for all of us to think about and consider and mull over and, maybe at some point, actually implement some of the ideas that are out there in the public. I think he is one good example of, hopefully, a source for those of us who make decisions in public policy.

I consider any time and energies and dollars used towards alternative energy sources as an investment. I am hoping that is the way that the government is looking at alternative energy as well. I would be interested to know, just in a general way, what kind of projects the minister envisions his department moving towards in terms of alternative energy.

Mr. Newman: I take it that for the purposes of this discussion, you are treating renewable hydroelectricity as something other than alternative energy. Maybe I can get that clarification. If not, I can share some thoughts about the direction that we are going as a province and Manitoba Hydro is going and the whole, really, climate change initiative, because we have a wonderful renewable power source which is amongst the cheapest in North America. That is certainly a major area which we have every desire through our department to encourage and expand for the benefit of Manitobans and the world. So if you could give me that clarification, then I could answer perhaps more directly to your question.

Mr. Struthers: Yes, I am quite excited about the kind of possibilities I see in terms of hydro. I was thinking of that separate--if it is easier for you to deal with that separately, that would be fine, or roll them together. It is fine by me.

Mr. Newman: I will then just be very brief about hydroelectricity and its future contributing to the whole effort to reduce the carbon emissions. That is clearly the most significant way a difference can be made on a world scale, certainly on a North American scale, certainly on a national scale. That is the major area of initiative.

That aside for a moment, the other two areas of focus by the department are on ethanol as a less environmentally negative fuel for motor vehicles. The other initiative we are focusing on is fleet vehicle conversion, a movement towards natural gas and propane as alternative fuels.

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Mr. Struthers: Mr. Chairperson, what I am thinking about is how is your department looking at getting individuals themselves, what kind of encouragement can we give individuals to adopt conservation as a way to increase the resources that we have? Maybe this is particular to Hydro, I am thinking. What kind of measures on the part of this department are we taking towards encouraging people to conserve hydroelectric energy or natural gas or even ethanol? I mean, even though it is a cheaper, more efficient, more environmentally friendly method of going, how do we even encourage the conservation of ethanol? It is the conservation that I am particularly concerned about.

Mr. Newman: Through educational processes and tools like fact sheets, workshops, how-to booklets, advisory service and things that are less direct but encourage awareness and habit development like the calendar that we, together with the federal Department of Natural Resources, put together and disseminate throughout Manitoba, thanks to the contributions made by students of our school system who offer their works of art and, in effect, the content of the calendar with captions with their works of art, that make a contribution to the education of their peers and other young people. There is an award process given to any Manitoba student in school for making that contribution.

I know that I unfortunately could not attend myself to make a presentation at the Riverton elementary school. The director, Bob Dubreuil, did attend and make the presentation on my behalf, as I understand it. So those kinds of things I do not undervalue, and you as a former principal and teacher know the power of that.

A thing that we are doing which I am very proud of is the Manitoba R-2000 home program that grew out of the federal R-2000 program and has evolved over time to include methods to improve the indoor air quality and to reduce overall environmental impacts. These regional R-2000 committees involving Natural Resources Canada, provincial governments, energy utilities, and home builders associations are in place across Canada.

The Manitoba R-2000 home program is operated by a committee composed of Energy and Mines, Natural Resources Canada, Manitoba Hydro, Centra Gas, and the construction association of rural Manitoba. In September of 1994 our department assumed the management and administration functions of the program. R-2000 houses are designed and built to a specific energy performance standard, and they can only be built by a builder who has undertaken R-2000 training. Each house is examined and tested before it can be certified as an R-2000 home.

Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair

The kinds of ways that we promote this, we have that home outside the Convention Centre, which is a model for R-2000 and is a place that is visited by people from around the world and from parts of Manitoba. We encourage people to visit and see for themselves through that. I know this weekend I will be out in Brandon on Sunday with staff showing my encouragement and support for an R-2000 housing complex which will be officially opened called the BrieCrest Estates.

Another initiative, the department met with representatives of the Lions Club of Winnipeg Housing Centres to discuss the role of the department in the revitalization of the west Broadway area. This got attention in the newspaper. I think that is all part of the solution and the awareness building. This involves renovations and new home construction programs and offered will be vocational training to the residents of west Broadway and the inner city areas while utilizing the products and business services in the area. Our department's interest in the project relates to the opportunities for both the energy efficiency aspects in both the renovations and new home construction.

We also see opportunities of providing marketing assistance to the project. Some specific things that have emerged is video service has been retained to compile footage of the renovations and new home construction to the area. The video will contain many before, during, and after shots of the project, as well as any new building techniques or new energy efficient products being used, the intent being to provide a documentary video which can be used in marketing the concept in other areas of the province or country. The video will also be used to develop the skills and train future trades people. That is another illustration of the way the department gets involved in these innovative opportunities, so that we can hopefully influence a new way of doing energy conservation and energy efficiency.

Another opportunity that we availed ourselves of was the flood of the century, in that given that there was so much rebuilding, it was going to be necessary through that, the staff in the department initiated the idea and this is the kind of thing they do. They are creative and they are expected to be creative. Initially the idea of holding workshops and seminars to help these people at their time of need right in the community and the result of that was not only an awareness, but they were given the educational tools to be able to incorporate energy efficient construction into their renovations.

Another initiative which is again taking advantage of an opportunity is the department playing a role of technical support to the eco-village project at The Forks, which is a project of the Eco-Village Foundation Inc., proposing to build 125 units sustainable urban village at The Forks and downtown Winnipeg. Specific targets are to reduce energy use by 30 percent, water use by 50 percent, and greenhouse gas CO2 emissions by 75 percent as compared to standard construction techniques. There have been many examples of individual new homes that are more energy efficient and environmentally responsible. This project, however, is one of the first where these concepts are to be applied on a community-wide basis in an urban setting. Energy and Mines is providing the monitoring and technical review of the project, and Environment is administering the project funding.

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Mr. Struthers: One of the things that I really do enjoy about being an MLA over the last three years is that I have had all kinds of opportunities to read about those kind of advances that we have made in terms of conservation and energy efficiency. So any time that the minister comes across a particularly good one, I would look forward to having information on that. I think it is something that my constituents as well are very much interested in.

A couple of encouragements here: first of all, the minister mentioned some work that they are doing with the Lions Club. I think that that is a good thing. I think partnerships like that are what is going to spread the word about conservation and about energy efficiency, and it helps other people at least partially take ownership for these kind of programs and partially take responsibility for our place in the ecosystem. So I think the more that the minister can involve groups like that, the better it is for the program as a whole.

The minister also mentioned my background as a teacher and a principal. I do not think you can say enough for the contact that we as adults have in the classrooms, when we talk of whatever the subject is, but in particular, in this case, conservation and energy efficiency and all those sorts of things. I am reminded specifically about the effect that you as a minister had on a certain young fellow up at South Indian Lake, when I was in that school with the minister, and the minister made a presentation to the student who had designed a logo that was being used by the minister. It is not the kind of thing you measure on a standardized test or those sorts of things, but they are the kind of things that show results down the road. Simple things that you do in the classroom stick with a child; they are never tested on it. Sometimes it is frustrating, when I was in the teaching world, to know just how much information is in there between the ears, because we can never understand how much there is actually in a child's brain that they have packed away in there that will be used down the road. I think that is positive for society as a whole. So I would encourage the minister to continue to think in terms of involving our young people in these kind of things.

The minister also mentioned R-2000 and home programs, and I think there is a vast field out there where we can really make some positive steps. I think one of the ways we can really go a long ways in conserving energy is thinking about the homes in which we live and designing those homes and making adjustments to, No. 1, cut down on the amount of energy that we use, cut down on the amount of energy that we waste, and also cut down on input costs for homeowners.

The natural gas people and oil people may not like what I am about to say and this may sound like an advertisement for one method over another, but one method of heating a home and cooling a home that I have done quite a bit of reading on is geothermal heating. I think it is an area in which there could be a big market out there. I think it is an environmentally friendly way to heat and cool our homes, not just our homes, but bigger facilities as well. I think we can do a lot in terms of heat recovery when it comes to these geothermal systems. I know in other provinces there have been rebate systems set up for people; it may not just be geothermal heating they go into, but any other kind of environmentally friendly system for energy use has been rewarded through a rebate program of one sort or another.

I was wondering if the minister has given any contemplation at all towards geothermal as a way to heat buildings in this province and whether a rebate system of one form or another would not be advisable to encourage people off the usual ways that we heat our homes to a geothermal method, which is much more environmentally friendly.

Mr. Newman: Because of the very significant Manitoba Hydro advantage, these alternative ways of providing energy are not relatively as attractive here as they may be in other jurisdictions, which do not have the huge advantage that we have. So a well-meaning but sometimes misguided effort to get involved in the marketplace to encourage some other means of providing energy might have an overall negative impact on what the marketplace has decided is the most efficient conservationist way to do something, which is not to say that the department and even Hydro have not examined solar, wind and ground source heat pump or geothermal, as you have described it. All of the literature that comes out, the promoters of those means of providing energy are known to both the department and Hydro.

We relate to them in positive ways. They are trying to sell their product, but the analysis that has been done by the department--and Hydro has independently done its own analysis, which I do not have as much detail as I do of the department--but the department has concluded that, generally speaking, in most cases, due to the high capital cost of ground source heat pump technology and construction, it does not compete with hydro. In fact, I am advised that it does not compete with natural gas either, even close enough for the environmental benefits factored in to conclusively establish that that is the favourite way to go. I do know that they are making some effort to prove themselves.

I know I was approached to use my good offices to see whether or not the eco-village foundation might try them out there or allow them in effect to compete with natural gas as a source. That is up to the foundation to determine and then the funding. The interesting thing is everyone is trying to determine the balance through the concept of sustainable development. They will have to prove themselves in that sort of way at appropriate costs.

There are practical and, indeed, functioning applications now of that kind of technology where hydro is not readily available. I have seen some of them in operation. I even understand some schools get their energy from that kind of technology, and that is a choice made by the bodies that make decisions about capital construction. I guess, ultimately, the school board makes a major part in that.

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Mr. Struthers: I think that, when I raised the issue, I used geothermal as one example. The minister talks about solar and wind. My encouragement to him would be to consider some form of a rebate for any alternative energy source with the goal in mind to reduce the amount of hydro being consumed domestically in order to increase the amount of hydro available to us for export. I think, given the sales of electricity to Minnesota that we have had over the years, given I think our ability to export more energy outside of the province is a good thing for Manitobans. It is a good thing, I think, for Manitoba Hydro, and I would encourage the minister to look at any ways that he can, domestically, to reduce the amount of hydro that we use with the goal in mind of increasing our exports down the line.

The minister hit the nail on the head when it comes to geothermal. The reason why many people around my hometown of Dauphin do not just leap into geothermal ground surface heating is exactly the cost that it is going to be to them to get into it at the beginning. You talk to somebody who would like to sell you the system and set it up for you, and he will very convincingly explain how many years it would take to recover that initial cost through savings in hydro because you are not using as much hydro. That is all well and fine, and I think they make a pretty good case in those terms. As an individual homeowner, it is something that would mean a lot to me to recover my initial outlay of capital. But other jurisdictions have considered and actually implemented rebates to help people get into or jump over that hurdle of the capital at the beginning so that they can get to the point quicker where they can realize savings in hydro.

As it stands now, you are right, not many people are going to opt to move away from natural gas in Dauphin if they have to put up a bunch of money beforehand. I would like to be able to convince the minister that it would be an energy-wise, a conservation-wise step to provide a rebate to people who are looking at other sources of energy to heat their homes and buildings so that we can get to the point where we are conserving energy over the long term. Maybe the minister might want to shed some light on that.

Mr. Newman: It would not be unprecedented for a government to do that kind of thing in appropriate cases with a comprehensive kind of strategy, looking at perhaps economic development within the province, in addition, in ways that would be significant. That sort of strategic approach contributed to a road tax rebate for ethanol of 2.5 cents per litre. So, you know, if there are ideas for other areas where this would have a strategic advantage in a broad way for the people of Manitoba, as well as, contribute to the reduction of carbon emissions or contribute in some other favourable way to the environment and economic development as well, the department would be very interested in considering and analyzing those and sharing with other departments where appropriate. We have no hesitation interacting with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and his department or the City of Winnipeg in their areas of fiscal policy development to use their good offices and policies and budgets to advance our efforts in all of the competing requests, that kind of approach. If you can, say, help us make a case, if you can bring forward any case, it is the mandate of this part of our department to analyze it and make recommendations.

Mr. Struthers: Listening to the minister, I was reminded of the discussion that took place in the Legislature not long ago on The Sustainable Development Act, parts of which were proceeded on and parts of which were not. One of the positive things I thought that came out of that discussion was a realization of the interconnectedness of all the departments in government. I think one of the positive things that anybody who got involved in the debate realized was how important it was to have the concept of sustainability injected into each of the departments and each of the activities of government. I think that in the long term will serve us well, if we not just adopt the thinking but have it appear in the decisions that we make in government in whichever department.

One of the things I have become more and more worried about in terms of anything that has to do with resources and resource management is the database upon which we make our decisions. It seems to me to make good common sense that if you have a database, an inventory that is up to date and is solid, then you can make up-to-date and solid decisions based on that information that you have available, and this applies to any department that deals with natural resources.

Within your department, are there figures that I could obtain indicating how many individuals in the province draw their energy in whole or in part, I suppose in part, from solar panels, from windmills? I do not know if I am being too detailed here or if you would have this kind of information, how many geothermal ground-source heating units there are.

I am just going off the top of my head and I am not going to cover all the different alternative energy, but I am wondering if there is a body of knowledge within the department that I could access that would tell me those kinds of information.

Mr. Newman: We do not have a comprehensive database at this time, but there would be examples available through the department probably, any one of those that you have mentioned and probably others, that would facilitate your accessing them, but not a reliable, comprehensive database.

Mr. Struthers: I would appreciate anyway that the minister can undertake to get that kind of information for me. I am a little bit concerned that we make decisions without that data available to us.

Is there a plan or has the minister considered a comprehensive strategy in gathering all that kind of information on alternative energy sources and the usage out there in the Manitoba wilderness, so that we can more fully understand the conservation and the savings that we are already obtaining and then get a good idea on how we can project any kind of savings and any kind of conservation that we might be aiming for in the future?

I hope that the minister understands sort of what I am looking for. I would like to see a base of data available to his department and to us in opposition and to my constituents that can say here is where we are today with alternative energy; here is where we would like to be 10 years down the road, and have a real strategy towards moving in the direction of conservation of energy.

Mr. Newman: Always these kinds of initiatives have some value, and you have to measure the relative value of using the time and energy and talent of the people that we have working within the department. We certainly have not had that capacity up until now, and in terms of choosing how our two new policy and program analysts are going to use their time, energy and talents, the priority of the department has been to have them concentrate on developing an energy forecasting model and, in addition, to concentrate on doing a greenhouse gas inventory for Manitoba, so those fit the broad strategic priorities that we have as a government at this time, and we got the support of the government to add these two positions to focus on these initiatives.

Mr. Struthers: I would encourage the minister to look at this whole area very carefully. I think it is very basic to making decisions in government. I hope that maybe in next year's Estimates we can sit down again and have a discussion about what has been done from today to next year at this time and have a good understanding of all the data that is out there, all the information, so that we can make good decisions in terms of conservation.

I think it is something that would be a very positive step within the department. This is a case that I will be making in my own Natural Resources Estimates as well. It is maybe even more valuable within Natural Resources where decisions are made everyday on the basis of how many animals and how many trees and how many fish and how much water and that sort of thing, but I think there is an area within Energy and Mines, as well, where we need to have that database so that we can base our decisions on good solid information. So I would encourage the minister to do that.

I guess the other part of this, the natural flow of this, is what mechanism do you use to measure how well we have proceeded along the conservation route, and can the minister explain to me how he as minister looks in his department and decides are we going along the right route; have we reached the goals that we have set for energy conservation?

What precisely is the process he uses to evaluate the move towards conserving energy or the move towards alternative energy sources?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The time being 12 noon, I am interrupting proceedings.

The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following the conclusion of Routine Proceedings.