Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), that under Rule 27 the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the threat to community obstetrics posed by this government.

Motion presented.

Madam Speaker: Firstly, today I would like to inform the House that the notice requirement for this matter was met.

Mr. Lamoureux: It is with regret that we have to introduce this particular motion, which we attempted to get on the floor last Thursday, because we believe that it is indeed of a most urgent basis and it is, indeed, in the public's best interest that we do allow for this debate to occur. Even in listening to the Minister of Health's (Mr. Praznik) response today in Question Period, there is a lot of uncertainty as to what is actually happening over at the Grace Hospital with respect to the obstetrics unit. The Minister of Health today states that, look, we are not going to recommend the closing of that obstetrics unit or concur with the closing of the obstetrics unit at least until we get a recommendation from the regional health board in Winnipeg.

Well, Madam Speaker, you know earlier today, I was at a rally at which there was an expectant mother who was wanting to have her child at the Grace Hospital and who is being told that now she has to look for another health care facility. So what we have is a lot of people out there within the public who are not sure whether or not they are going to be having the opportunity to have their child at the hospital. That issue in itself could give justification to allowing the urgency of this particular debate. There are staff over at the facility that are questioning whether or not they themselves are going to be continuing on, if they in fact should be applying for other obstetrics positions throughout Winnipeg. There is a great deal of apprehension in the communities that are directly impacted with respect to this particular recommendation.

The only way in which we are going to be able to see that apprehension dealt with is if we get direction from this government. The government has been very reluctant to give any sort of direction. It has been more content on trying to offload its responsibility in giving that direction to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, which does not even have the legal mandate as of yet to deal with this particular issue in a concrete, tangible way.

For us, it is the broader picture that needs to be looked at, does the government believe in community health care facilities. If the answer to that is yes, Madam Speaker, then it is urgent that the Minister of Health take a position with respect to the obstetrics in delivering of obstetrics programs. The Action Plan itself talks about the importance of community health facilities. What I would ultimately argue is that the obstetrics program is something that can be delivered through our community health care facilities.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Inkster that he was recognized to speak for not more than five minutes on the urgency of debating the motion today. According to Beauchesne Citation 390, urgency in this context means the immediate urgency of debate, not of the subject matter of the motion.

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Mr. Lamoureux: In order to understand the urgency of the matter, one has to realize the apprehension that is out there in the community as a result of this government's lack of commitment in terms of making a good decision dealing with the obstetrics and how obstetrics is going to be delivered in the city of Winnipeg.

Madam Speaker, if you take a look at what is before us, there are very strong limitations in terms of what it is that will allow for this type of debate to occur. The government will argue, the government House leader will say we are going into the health care Estimates. There is no doubt that we will be going into government Health Estimates, but we do not necessarily know when. The line of discussion could--or the line, depending on the Minister of Health's own will, will determine just how or when we are going to be able to address that particular issue.

Madam Speaker, the apprehension is there today. The only assurance that we can get in addressing that issue today is by allowing this particular debate to occur. Other members in this Chamber, including myself, have used my grievance so I cannot stand up on a grievance to address this particular issue.

What we are talking about is the broader picture of whether or not this government believes in community health care facilities, and that is why we believe that the Minister of Health and the government House leader should support the need for this urgent debate.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to urge you to deal with this emergency resolution and, that indeed, it is an urgent matter. What we see here is a clear lack of leadership, and what is needed urgently is exactly that, leadership, something we have not seen from the government. In particular for those families who are expecting a new child, this is not something to be played with. They are making plans now. It is only four months before their children are born. Are they going to be born at the Grace Hospital or are they going to be forced into the Health Sciences Centre because there are no options in the west end, St. James-Assiniboia, Charleswood areas? This government needs to take leadership now. What other opportunities are there? We are not in Health Estimates. We do not have that opportunity. It is urgent that we deal with this issue here in the House to give the people of Winnipeg a clear resolution to this crisis.

Madam Speaker, the urgency is clear to those families who are expecting a child. For those members on the other side of the House, none of them, I think, are expecting a child, but there are thousands of families who are, and on behalf of those families I urge the government to consider the situation. Are they going to have an opportunity to have their child in the local community hospital in a setting that is warm and inviting or are they going to be moved on the spur of the moment to the Health Sciences or St. Boniface? I urge the government to consider this resolution in the urgency, given that we are not in Health Estimates, we do not have the opportunity of private members' hour, so therefore it is indeed an urgent matter. The uncertainty has come to the public forefront, and it is clear that what is urgent is a clear message from the Minister of Health that the obstetrics ward in the Grace Hospital will remain open for a clear, defined period of time.

Madam Speaker, the urgency is there. The arguments are presented by both the member who presented the resolution, and I would urge on behalf of the members that represent the ridings in St. James and the west end and Wolseley, Assiniboia, Sturgeon Creek, for all of those people in the west St. James part of the city, this is an urgent matter, and I urge the House to deal with this today.

Thank you.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I listened intently to the eloquent remarks made by both the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) on this extremely important topic. It has been a matter of interest and animated debate for a number of years in Manitoba. The whole idea that somehow today represents a more urgent situation than we have already seen does not characterize the situation correctly at all.

Madam Speaker, this issue was raised last week by the honourable member for Inkster and at that time, while Your Honour ruled that he had not met the proper requirements for debate on this, I argued at that time, that notwithstanding that, the issue of urgency for debate today in the House, the case for that has not been appropriately made. The issues today are no different from what they were last week, nor different from what they were a few months ago.

The honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) has made it clear the priority that he and his department place on the whole issue of obstetrics, and that is not new in Manitoba. In fact, that is borne out, the priority placed on obstetrics is borne out by the report, referred to earlier by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), by one Dr. Frank Manning who points out in that report, Madam Speaker, that nowhere in the world can the prospective parents go that is safer than the city of Winnipeg for obstetric services. So obviously the department, previous ministers, previous administrations, everybody in Manitoba places the right priority on this particular issue. So the issue does resolve itself into a matter of whether the urgency is sufficient to justify an emergency debate in this House, and clearly what I would say today would be no different from what I said last week and that is that there are ample opportunities for discussion of this topic. Estimates are here or just around the corner. As I said, I think last week, as House leader I am always available to discuss these matters with my opposite numbers in the other parties with respect to the scheduling. This has been a matter of co-operation all along, the scheduling of our Estimates process, and it is working.

But I say we are not going to discard what Dr. Manning said about Winnipeg being the safest place in the world for obstetrics services. We are not going to let that go by the boards in our future determination about the appropriate places and levels of obstetrics services. I think the minister has laid out for honourable members, if they had been listening, that we prefer the planning approach to the ad hoc approach which is being suggested by honourable members in both opposition parties represented in this House. Sometimes the ad hoc approach makes for better politics, I agree, but better long-term planning for obstetrics services does a better service for all Manitobans now and in the future.

We are proud of what Dr. Manning has said, and we want to make sure that is uppermost in our minds as we go forward, but to have a debate today on a matter that is clearly before all of the professionals not only in obstetrics but in the regional health authority system that we have now in the province of Manitoba and to substitute our judgment today for theirs would be inappropriate, No. 1, but to argue that there is no other option available but an emergency debate is simply not correct because there are ample opportunities between now and next fall or whenever these decisions will be forthcoming. There are plenty of opportunities for honourable members opposite, for Manitobans out there who are interested, and I suggest that virtually every single Manitoban should be interested in this issue. There is ample opportunity for all to be heard before decisions get made.

So, with all due respect to my colleague, who is right to be interested in this topic, as is the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) and my colleagues from Sturgeon Creek and from Assiniboia and from Kirkfield Park, everybody is interested in this matter and ought to be, I suggest that the process that we have in place is a better process than any ad hoc approach being suggested by the opposition in this House. That is one of the things about being in the opposition: ad hockery is the order of the day.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Firstly, as I indicated earlier today, the notice requirement for this matter was met. The Speaker's role when a matter of urgent public importance is put forward is, according to Manitoba practice and Beauchesne, to determine whether the matter is so pressing that the public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention and to judge whether the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and the public interest demands that discussion take place immediately.

While the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) brings forward an important matter, in my judgment the public interest will not be harmed if debate of this matter does not take place today. The Estimates of the Department of Health are upcoming, and I believe the issues raised by the honourable member for Inkster can be addressed at that time.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, in keeping with the agreement between the House leaders, I do not think it would be appropriate to have the bells ring but just to express that we do believe that the debate should have been allowed to proceed.

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