Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have twenty-nine Grade 9 students from the Collège Notre-Dame under the direction of Madame Edith Hague. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, certainly we are pleased to see that the people of Dominion City are returning to their community, and we look forward to the return, as the minister has indicated, of the people living in the Roseau River First Nation.

There was also some bad news over the weekend, and the ministers have talked about the Grande Pointe situation where some 125 homes have been affected by the high flood waters. I would like to ask the Premier today: What happened to Grande Pointe in terms of why it was flooded, when some of the earlier predictions indicated that it would not be affected by this rising water in the way it was?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Well, Madam Speaker, I am not sure about earlier predictions as to what levels might be. I do know that levels were upgraded periodically during the course of the flood predictions and that eventually--I suppose it was two weekends ago this past weekend that there were two upgrades when the flow information from North Dakota was available to us that indicated that they had achieved flows much higher than predicted in the Grand Forks area. I think that ultimately in those two upgrades, about 3 feet were added to the expected peak. Subsequently, I believe it was last Thursday, another foot was added in the area immediately upstream of the floodway.

I can only share the information that perhaps the member opposite has seen, and that is the explanations from the Water Resources engineers are that the flow patterns were difficult to predict, that flow was being channelled, it appeared, by a railway line. Flow that was coming directly from the St. Adophe, Ste. Agathe area seemed to be deflected eastward into Grande Pointe and produced water levels that did not appear in the modelling. Those levels, which appeared to be somewhere in the range of a half foot or more greater, were of course significant, but at the same time, the overall water level there was some 7 feet higher than in 1979 and some 5 feet, I believe it was, 5 or 6 feet higher than last year.

* (1345)

So, as in any of these things, the engineers who are attempting to make predictions are dealing with a lot of unknown factors. There are a lot of roadways that have been constructed, augmented or altered even since the last time that there have been comparable flows that could be traced. All I can say is that the best available information was given to the people in the area, and they continue to live in a flood plain outside of the protection of the primary diking system and the floodway that protects people in greater Winnipeg or the ring dikes that protect other communities. All of us, I know, are very upset to have seen the devastation and damage. What could or could not be predicted, of course, is not something that I can say.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, we have talked and listened to some of the people from that area, as I know the Premier has, and they indicated to us that they were given different sets of predictions about what would happen to their community. I have gone back and looked through some of the releases. April 26, it said that the levels should begin to fall at Grande Pointe and should not exceed current levels when the Red crests in early May. April 28 also mentioned the wind levels had raised the water at Grande Pointe, but they expected it to fall with the change in wind. April 29 noted that there was some rise in water, but they did not expect again the situation that developed over the period of time.

I would like to ask the First Minister and the Premier: When did the forecasts change? Why did they change? Do we know why it happened, and when was the community notified?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I believe the records indicate that on Thursday, May 1, the forecast level at Grande Pointe was increased by a foot, and that information would have been conveyed to all of those people who were receiving information, principally the municipalities who then of course would translate that into whatever local action would be necessary.

I do not know if the member watched when Mr. Whitney, the flood liaison officer, was attempting to demonstrate what appeared to be confusing signals there with the different currents and flows that were not predicted. The area of Grande Pointe is actually closer to Winnipeg than the entrance to the floodway, and the expectation was that the water there would not be higher than the entrance. In fact, the Grande Pointe levels seem to be mirroring what was happening considerably upstream at St. Adolphe. The engineers do not have any means of being able to explain that, and so I am in the same position as they are, accepting the technical information without having any adequate information to explain how it is that the water patterns took that kind of level.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I am sure the Premier has heard from residents of that community over the weekend. There was a real concern, and I am pleased to hear that there are three military vehicles and barges in the area now, but we all saw people in boats with sandbags looking like they were going to go down any second, you know, carrying those bags desperately to protect their home and their communities over the weekend.

Madam Speaker, has the Premier had a chance or will he have a chance in the future to evaluate at what time the communication came from the forecasters to the military and other emergency response people to get as many of our emergency response resources in place at Grande Pointe at the earliest possible time? We seem to be--and it is only appearances and I do not know whether this is correct or not, but the people there perceived that there were lots of military resources available, in fact, even in areas all across the province. That is great; it is wonderful they are here, but they did not get there very early in the process before unfortunately some of those homes went down.

* (1350)

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, with regard to the military being deployed out to the area, I am told by my staff at Emergency Management that the request officially came through for the deployment of armed forces out to that particular area on Friday last, and then they were sent out there immediately.

Prior to that, the rural municipality had not identified Grande Pointe as an area that required armed forces and so, under the Manitoba Emergency Management Organization, the deployment of armed forces takes place upon identification of the need by the local Emergency Management Organization. As I was told, the request came through on Friday.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Flood victims were very pleased when they heard the increase of coverage to $100,000. I want to commend the government for moving so quickly on our suggestion when we brought it to their attention last week.

I want to also thank the Minister of Government Services for providing us with the binders on detail and hope that they will be reprinting their pamphlets which say that the coverage is only to $30,000. However, details of coverage are not very clearly spelled out, so I would like to ask the minister responsible for disaster assistance to indicate whether details have been worked out as to what farm losses will be covered for families who have not only lost their homes but have lost their livelihoods.

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): I cannot answer the member's question with specifics. However, with regard to personal residences, the outline for recovering damage or requiring damage assistance or disaster assistance for personal residences is spelled out in the policy.

I think what the member was probably alluding to, as well, is the fact that last week we signed the Canada-Manitoba agreement with the federal government, and within that agreement there is an area that we are actively working on at the present time to put in place a program that would address the aspect of farm and agricultural restoration as well as business restoration within that program.

Ms. Wowchuk: Because it is impossible to get flood coverage on many things in the Red River Valley, can the minister indicate whether through this agreement that he spoke about, if there is going to be compensation for livestock, whether it be hogs, poultry or cattle that were moved or lost during the flood? Is this one of the things that he is negotiating under this federal-provincial agreement?

Mr. Pitura: Madam Speaker, I am told right now that within the area of moving livestock in and out of farms and the movement of grain in and out of farms, that that is a recoverable expense under Disaster Assistance.

With respect to the actual coverage of livestock, livestock is covered under the present program if they are lost on an individual farm, but the whole issue of covering a broad range of livestock, of course, is not addressed within that policy. This is a part of some of the issues that would be addressed under the new program, but it is far too early to speculate as to exactly what the details would be and the numbers, et cetera.

Ms. Wowchuk: As the government works through this agreement with the federal government, will the minister assure Manitobans that he will be working to ensure that Manitobans get the same kind of coverage, Manitoba farmers and rural people, that the people and the farmers in the Saguenay area received during their disaster?

Mr. Pitura: Madam Speaker, I would like to just assure the member that our government is prepared to seek the assistance that is necessary to address the disaster that we have gone through and any future disasters and to ensure that the residents of Manitoba are treated in a fair and equitable fashion with respect to both within the province and as well across this country. I think that, with the member mentioning the Saguenay region, we are of course employing some of the guidelines used within the Saguenay in terms of some of the programs that we have signed with the federal government.

* (1355)

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, during these times of crisis and emergency, saving homes and lives is the first priority. Still, on this side of the House, we are aware of our rich history and the heritage properties along our flooding river systems. I would like to ask the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship if she could tell us which, if any, of our designated sites or designated buildings have been submerged or flooded.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I do not have details on any specific areas; however, I am happy to tell her that there was a recognition of concern around the coming flood, that my department met with Natural Resources. They did identify the heritage sites which were in fact most at risk and then heritage sites which may be at a secondary risk. There has been communication with those sites in an effort to assist them on a prevention side.

Ms. McGifford: To the minister again: Could she assure us that the financial resources and professional expertise, which would be necessary for restoration in case of damage, would be available to those buildings and/or properties?

Mrs. Vodrey: My department has provided assurance to the sites that they will be available to assist them, especially recognizing that restoration or concerns in these areas may in fact be different than for other buildings because they are historic sites. So, in answer to that part of the question, yes, those resources will be available.

In terms of financial assistance, we also have wanted to let the sites and the buildings know that some assistance, I understand, has been provided in the past through the Heritage Grants program and designated Heritage Building Grants program. They will all be notified of the deadlines, though I understand, if necessary, flexibility would be there.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Could the minister tell us if there is a possibility of accessing federal monies for the restoration work? That is to say, will necessary restorations be covered by disaster relief funds?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, under the disaster financial assistance policies and guidelines, of course there is an area there which can address the needs of certain community organizations or clubs that operate within a community. If some of these heritage sites that the member is talking about are actually controlled by a community organization in terms of maintaining them, they indeed may be eligible for assistance under the disaster assistance policy in terms of damages that may occur to the heritage buildings.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, last Wednesday the Minister of Education acknowledged that the new Canadian studies curriculum is not ready and that she has again delayed her elimination of the mandatory senior-level Canadian history. I think this was the right decision and I want to congratulate the minister on it, but I also want to ask her to confirm that this is not just a decision for one year but that, in fact, the new Canadian studies curriculum cannot be made available for at least three years, and could she give us that sense of the long-term prospect for Manitoba schools.

* (1400)

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, it is a good question, one which we addressed to the field many months ago when we indicated that, until such time as the new curriculum was ready, the existing arrangements would remain in place. With the new western protocol, as you know, working with Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon and Northwest Territories, it will then be a matter of years, not months, two or three years as opposed to a year and a half which might have been had we done it alone. Until such time as that new curriculum is ready and to the satisfaction of all parties, the existing arrangements will continue. Schools have been notified of that many months ago, but we will be reconfirming just for their updating at about this time.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister take the opportunity of this further delay to convene a meeting or indeed several meetings of all the people, the people from the legions and the local historical societies, the social studies teachers, the archivists, all the people who wrote in the past to the minister with their concerns about the elimination of senior-level Canadian history? Could she begin to convene that kind of public discussion and to hear from those Manitobans?

Mrs. McIntosh: Of course, inherent in the question is the assumption that we are not doing that. I have met in the last two months alone on three separate occasions with members of the legion, for example, or army, navy and air force veterans or interested veterans individually, so those kinds of discussions are always ongoing. They do not need to be begun in that sense because they do not cease. They are part of our regular process of talking to people, getting input, receiving feedback. I assure her that we will continue, as we have in the past, talking and listening to people about what should be included and what should be done in terms of delivery of the very important subject of social studies in our curriculum.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, is the minister prepared to convene a public meeting, a meeting of parents, a meeting of the parent advisory councils so that there can be the broader public discussion, not just the interviews with the minister, although I congratulate her on that, but the broader public discussion of the place of Canadian history in the school curriculum in Manitoba?

Mrs. McIntosh: Again, I should indicate that those discussions that are ongoing are not just taking place with me. They are indeed taking place with senior officials in my department with teachers, with educators, with parent councils. When we go and meet with parent councils, we will discuss an array of topics. That is always one that we are willing to discuss.

As well, Madam Speaker, the development of the curricula should be clearly understood as being done by master historians and master teachers carefully selected from all five jurisdictions working together with historians right across western Canada. Those people have expertise that is invaluable, probably much better than any of us here in this room could gather together. [interjection] Well, they are recognized master historians and teachers whose expertise and pedagogy and the rate of development and the age in which abstract ideas can best be developed are known, so I think we have a good program in place.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is somewhat of a follow-up from a question we asked last week with respect to once the flood waters start to recede and life starts to get a little bit back to normal, in particular in rural Manitoba. We had asked the question with respect to the Green Team to the Minister of Finance. The government appeared to be very sympathetic to expanding or giving additional resources. I was going to ask the Minister of Finance if we can anticipate an announcement shortly of an expansion of that particular program and if he might be able to also add to it whether or not the home-town component of the Green Team in rural Manitoba will be expanded to include more contributions from the province.

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, there is some work going on at the present time to expand the Green Team program--to consider it at least--to allow for the areas which are affected by the flood. As you know, the Green Team program has been a very successful one where the youth of Manitoba have really done a great job in terms of greening the province and in terms of helping communities to showcase their communities in the best light. I think that this would be an important aspect to recovering from the flood that we are experiencing at the present time.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, in some limited ways this government has come up with some successful programs.

My question to the minister is: The Green Team was projected as somewhere in the neighbourhood of 700 young people involved. Does the ministry have any idea in terms of what sort of expansion it would be looking at given the circumstances surrounding the flood? Are we looking at increasing it to above a thousand? Do they have some sort of a number that they are currently looking at?

Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, it is still too early to be able to project what requirement there will be in rural Manitoba for youth, but let me say that I do not believe there will be a shortage of work for the young people of this province this summer because there is an enormous job to be done. We will certainly be looking for all the students who are capable and ready to work to help these communities come back to normal.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am wondering if the minister then can indicate or at least provide for public information a telephone number to which young people can actually call in, that are interested, that want to make themselves available in order to register with this particular program or other potential programs that might be out there so that they can do two things: one, to assist in the cleanup, and two, to get some part-time work.

Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, as the member will know, the application forms for the Green Team are now public and they are available in the communities. We do not see setting up another administration for this program, but indeed there will be an enhancement and an addition to it, and the details of that will be known in the near future.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier. Last week he confirmed that Karen Alcock, as the project manager of ManGlobe, had a salary of $130,000 or $7,500 a month plus GST. Now could he confirm to the House that the salary of Tracey De Leeuw as project director was $240,000, meaning that these two managers themselves received three-quarters of the provincial grant or about $360,000 between the two of them?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, I did not confirm that, Madam Speaker. In fact, the member cannot get it right. What I said was, for 18 months the company of the individual received so many dollars. I think it was 100-and-some thousand dollars. That was not to Ms. Alcock, as the member refers, so I do not know whether he does not listen or whether he just comes here with his own agenda to try and malign somebody or try and pick on the Liberals or what his intentions are.

* (1410)

Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, we already know what Ms. Alcock's salary was. It is confirmed in court documents. I think the minister is confused. We are asking what Ms. De Leeuw's salary was. Is he confirming that it is the same as Ms. Alcock's? Because that is what he seems to be saying.

Mr. Downey: No, I am not, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my supplementary to the same minister is this: Since the president's travel budget was $60,000, according to the project papers, I would like to ask the minister what benefits did this province gain from the project director travelling to Japan, Germany, Italy, Rankin Inlet and regularly to Boston. Would he release a complete list of all the trips, the cost to the taxpayer and what was accomplished on these trips?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I am informed that the individual that he refers to that was doing the travelling, that the travel was in fact paid for by the companies which she was representing, not by the taxpayers of the province directly.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. Previously I had asked the Minister of Health to provide sufficient resources to eliminate the two-year waiting list for those persons requiring bone density scans. I have since learned that there are several women who have gone or are about to go to Minot, North Dakota, from the Brandon area at considerable cost. One person, indeed, estimated her cost was almost $700 Canadian.

The minister did agree that this was unacceptable. I would like to ask the minister therefore: Will the minister acknowledge that the backlog relates to insufficient utilization of the equipment here in Winnipeg because of staff cutbacks and that the waiting list could be reduced if more operating staff were made available?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Brandon East raises a subject that I agree wholeheartedly is one of importance for the women of this province and certainly for the Ministry of Health. I committed to him and to the House that we were working within the department to increase resources in that particular area in order to deal with that backlog. It is a priority that we have identified and are working towards a resolution of, and I would hope it will not be in the very distant future. So I appreciate his concern, and I hope that we are able to resolve it for those in need of this service.

Mr. Leonard Evans: I appreciate the answer of the minister. This was actually my second question: Specifically, when will the government see fit to provide sufficient resources so that my constituents and indeed all of the women of Manitoba or anyone indeed who has a problem will not be deprived of this important bone density scanning service that will have a bearing on their present and their future health?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, we are working now within the ministry to designate the resources to go into that particular area. I hope it is certainly not years away and it is certainly not many months. It takes some time to sort some of these issues out, as I know the member appreciates from his days in Executive Council. If he would bear with us, I think he will find the resolution will come far sooner than later.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, then I presume the minister will acknowledge, given his positive answer, that there are not only obvious costs to Manitobans who may decide to go out of the province for scanning because of the backlog, but there is also an untold and an immeasurable real cost to persons who may suffer in terms of their health because of having to wait unduly for this bone scanning procedure.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, absolutely, I would agree with the member with that point. That is why, in fact, even before his question in this House, the matter was brought to our attention, and we are attempting to address it and to find the resources with which to do that.

I will add that I think one of the key benefits of some of the regionalization that is going on now in the province is the change in which we will budget, particularly in Winnipeg and in Brandon, for those health authorities and the greater flexibility that they will have within those regions to be able to meet programming needs on a faster basis. That is one of the long-term benefits of reform that I know the previous minister and I hope we will be able to accomplish in this process, so I thank him for his very timely question.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, there are literally hundreds of thousands of unsung heroes in Manitoba today and the last few weeks dealing with the flood crisis, including people in the home care sector, home care workers who have put in place an emergency plan and are working diligently to deal with their patients and our loved ones in this time of extraordinary circumstances.

My question to the Minister of Health is: Today is the first day that the private contract given out by the government, the experimental contract is supposed to come into operation. Can the minister confirm whether or not in fact today is the date that the company is in fact operating in Manitoba?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am not going to confirm or deny that. In my understanding, we entered into the contract. They were beginning to gear up for operations. Whether it was today or a week or so ago, I can get that information for the member.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I wonder if the minister might also advise who is now responsible for the back-up service with respect to home care formerly undertaken by Central Health. Can the minister confirm whether or not it is Central Health or VON or who in fact is providing back-up service now with respect to home care?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, let us put this into some context that the experiment provided for a change in four quadrants within the city of Winnipeg. Two of those quadrants are being operated by our own home care service with regular backup. In the other two quadrants, one particular private contractor was awarded that particular contract for the year, and the regular processes of backup, et cetera, that are in place, it would be my understanding, would continue. The specifics of that I will find for the member, but I do not have them with me. I appreciate his interest and will endeavour to get them for him.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister along the same lines with respect to the contract is: It is not apparent from the contract and from the information that has been made public with respect to the $5.6 million that is being spent on this project whether or not this fund that is being expended is a total based on volume or whether or not it is a contractual amount that is based on the number of clients that the company sees and whether or not, if they do not see the total, that some of that money will return to the province. Can the minister outline where and how that $5.6 million is being paid to the company?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I know we will get into the details of this when we reach Estimates, but my recollection of the contract--I do not have it in front of me--is it is a volume contract that is based on the expectation of past history of service. So we certainly would not be paying, I would imagine, for services that are not being incurred. When we did cost those bids based on the expected volumes, the contracts of other bidders who had met the quality test came in at a greater amount in total costs than we expected we would be able to do that for ourselves. That is why we only awarded one contract, but the specific detail I will secure for the member.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, in support of the government's Waste Reduction and Prevention Strategy Report issued last year, which included the principles of waste minimization and the reduction of solid waste at source, the Minister of Environment last week in Estimates stated that tipping fees in landfills do have a role to play in helping decrease solid waste and should not be set so low so as to lead to careless disposal of items that could be recyclable.

I would like to ask the Minister of Environment how he squares his comments regarding the role of tipping fees in waste reduction with the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) comments on the radio in March--on CBC as a matter of fact--that, quote, if the city had not raised their tipping charges so high, BFI would never have had to look for its own site.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I do not see the Question Period as the appropriate place for debate as I understand it. [interjection] Honourable members obviously disagree with that, but the rules are clear about that. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) reminds us of that all the time. Immediately after Question Period I expect to be available in the Estimates for the Department of Environment and we can discuss that matter further, but I do not think this is the right place for the honourable member to engage in debate.

Ms. Barrett: I am speechless. I cannot believe that the--Madam Speaker, how can the Minister of Environment state that it is a debate of a point when I am simply asking him to confirm or deny or to explain the apparent and to me very clear distinction between what he said in Estimates last week--which was the proper thing--that tipping fees need to be high enough to discourage solid waste at source with what the Premier said on March 10 at CBC which was a complete negation of that statement?

Mr. McCrae: I am obviously pleased with myself today. I have been able to do something no one else on this side has been able to do, and that is to render the honourable member for Wellington speechless. I am sure that will not happen very often either.

Let us be very clear. What I was discussing the other day had to do with setting rates that are appropriate to ensure the maximization of the reduction of landfill materials so that we can recycle more and reuse and all those things that we should be doing. Surely that ought to be very much part of our thinking when these matters are considered.

Ms. Barrett: Would the Minister of Environment then undertake to educate the First Minister of the province of Manitoba as to the efficacy of tipping fees being high enough to discourage solid waste rather than making a purely business decision that says that corporations should be able to tip their waste into BFI's landfill--not the city's landfill but BFI's landfill--so as to increase their private profit? Will he undertake to educate the Premier to that difference?

Mr. McCrae: I like to specialize in the difficult, Madam Speaker, and silencing the honourable member for Wellington was difficult. The impossible takes a little longer. If the honourable member thinks that I would deign to educate a First Minister who served with distinction as Minister of Environment many years ago, she is wrong.

Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, would the Minister of Environment clarify that the impossible is to teach the Premier (Mr. Filmon) anything about solid waste management?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wellington does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): On November 13 the Minister of Family Services met with the Manitoba coalition of service providers, and they raised a number of issues, including the inadequacy of their budgets for care-in-home providers. I would like to ask the minister what she has done about this problem since that time to see that these organizations get adequate budgets so that they can pay their staff appropriate wages.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I want to thank my honourable friend for that question, because it does allow me to tell all Manitobans that we have significantly increased the budget in the Department of Family Services for services for those with mental disabilities and services for children with special needs. I make no apologies for those increases; they are well needed. The dollars are going to support more families, more children that need that support, and we will continue to work to ensure that those services are being provided in the most effective and efficient way for the families that need them.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The time for Oral Questions has expired.