Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Yes, I do, Mr. Chair.

It is a pleasure for me to present the Departmental Estimates for Rural Development for the 1997-98 fiscal year. I am particularly pleased to announce that for the 1997-98 funding appropriations for the department we have had an increase of 1.9 percent. This increase in funding has been a direct reflection of the department's success in delivering the kinds of programs and services rural Manitobans want and need to build strong and healthy communities.

The increases in existing program areas will continue to help our citizens in Manitoba to build on the successes they have already achieved. For example, funding will be increased for our Conservation District Program to enable us to increase the number of Conservation Districts that we have in the province of Manitoba.

There have been some significant successes, I believe, in Manitoba over the last year, and I would like to highlight some of them. For example, we have generated more than $170 million in new investment in the province, in the rural side of the province. We have had the creation of more than 2,000 full-time jobs in rural Manitoba, and also the creation of more than 3,900 part-time youth positions in rural Manitoba.

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Through the establishment of programs like the Grow Bonds Program and the REDI program, rural Manitobans have been supported in their continued efforts to sustain and to promote and to grow their communities. The proposed budget Estimates for 1997-98 will allow for the expansion of programs in the coming year. Once all the adjustments have been made, and keeping in mind a slight increase in our budget over last year, for 1997-98, Rural Development plans to spend close to a million dollars on program and service enrichment.

Through the prudent use of our resources, we have been able to maximize our goal of service first. Rural Manitobans and their prosperity and good governance remain our primary focus for rural Manitoba. Rural Manitobans are committed to strengthening their communities, to turn their ideas and their visions for the future into something tangible. Rural Development is proud to be a catalyst and a facilitator giving rural Manitobans the tools that they need to continue along the path of economic renewal and revival.

For the Local Government Services division, the last fiscal year was an extremely busy one. The completion of legislation for the new municipal act wrapped up three years of consultation and preparation leading to a new structure and a new attitude in local governance. The new act came into effect in January at the end of the last fiscal year, however not without a tremendous amount of work and planning, including the drafting of a procedurals manual that is being distributed to our municipalities and which they will be able to use in the municipal offices to help them implement the new municipal act.

In late November and throughout last December staff met with municipal officials throughout the province to review and discuss new processes and new expectations. The new act not only introduces a new beginning to municipal governance throughout Manitoba, but it also sets Manitoba apart as one of only a few provinces to bring in new municipal legislation. Manitoba's municipal leaders now have the tools to help them meet the challenges of running local government for today and well into the future.

Mr. Chairman, it might be said that in Rural Development we have already begun the new millennium. On the economic front, necessity indeed continues to be the mother of invention here in Manitoba and especially in the rural part of the province. Elimination of grain subsidies, with Manitoba producers having to face substantial increases in transportation costs, has prompted agriculture people to diversify, has prompted rural Manitobans to diversify, and they are doing so with significant success. Rural Manitobans are being encouraged and are now beginning to focus on value-added opportunities. Programs and services of the department support this new thrust by providing rural Manitobans with the impetus to move forward.

My honourable colleague, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), announced in his March provincial budget increased funding for Manitoba Rural Development. The budget provides Rural Development with $48.8 million, $19.25 million will go towards Rural Economic Development programs. It also includes $5.5 million in unconditional VLT support to communities and $9.5 million for capital programs.

In addition, municipal governments will receive $25.7 million in provincial municipal tax sharing, marking a 3 percent increase over last year. The increases reflect continued faith in the department in working with rural Manitobans to strengthen our rural economy. Our growth in the rural economy is significant and is strong. The impact of the budget on rural Manitoba is particularly encouraging and will again reinforce initiatives we have undertaken in the past number of years. This budget enhances announcements which will enable Manitoba Rural Development to continue with its plan for economic renewal and revival and in working with partnerships with rural Manitobans to make further strides.

Rural Economic Development Initiatives, or REDI, and Grow Bonds programs both remain underpinnings for future economic progress. Both are helping rural Manitobans to pursue their dreams and their goals. In process, they are enabling communities and businesses to generate economic wealth and employment opportunities. As I have already noted, we are witnessing an economic renewal and revival of our rural Manitoba communities that is unprecedented.

If you ask residents of other jurisdictions in Canada about how they view our rural province, those who have any knowledge of what is going on in rural Manitoba certainly look with some envy I might say and also with some encouragement that they too are going to be able to learn some of the lessons that we have learned in rural Manitoba and can implement them in their jurisdictions.

In Rural Development we have worked hard to be a catalyst in helping rural Manitobans to revitalize the rural landscape. I think that was evidenced by the census figures that came out just recently where in rural Manitoba we have seen an increase in population of some 18,000 people.

Our REDI and Grow Bonds programs have supported rural Manitobans as they continue to contribute to this upward trend. No question, the credit for the growth in rural economy belongs to rural Manitobans. Programs like REDI and Grow Bonds provide businesses and communities with the added bit of support that they need to make these things happen. This level of support often makes the difference in whether or not a community project or business initiative goes forward.

As we have seen in the past, unfortunately our traditional financial institutions, our banks, have shied away from the small rural businesses, and that is unfortunate. The one plus that I see is that through our Community Works Loan Program credit unions have moved in and have taken a very active role and have actually funded some of the Community Works Loan Programs and have been a major supporter of that program. It is certainly encouraging to see, because now we see credit unions giving back to their communities some of the things that they have been beneficiaries of as institutions in those communities.

Since 1992, our Rural Economic Development Initiative has spent $28.9 million to support innovative projects. REDI funding has leveraged close to $70 million in new capital investment and created more than 1,700 full-time jobs. Programs under REDI, such as Rural Entrepreneur Assistance, infrastructure and strategic initiatives lending much-needed assistance to innovative community and business endeavours have been implemented. The increased interest by Manitobans in strategic initiatives means that in the coming year we will allocate greater portions of our resources to this program.

The introduction, as I have just noted, of the Community Works Loan Program under the REDI umbrella already has shown strong signs of filling a void in support of small and home-based businesses. I might say that the Community Works Program, in partnership with our communities, is providing loans to those people who often do not have an ability to put up enough collateral to borrow money from a traditional financial institution. Although these loans are small, about $10,000, I can tell you that they are very significant to first-time business entrepreneurs, women especially who are often left out of the business area because they cannot access capital to get their small businesses up and running. It is also significant for the home-based businesses where we see a significant number of them springing up in the rural part of the province.

To date, about 20 communities participating in the program are offering another viable way of funding small businesses that otherwise would not be available in rural Manitoba. The increased resources for the Community Works Loan Program will ensure us that the level of uptake that we had anticipated when we announced the program is going to be fulfilled.

The priority of Manitoba Rural Development is to create opportunities for our rural youth as well. Programs like Junior Achievement, Partners with Youth and the Green Team give our young people job experience, training and information towards the future work options. In Junior Achievement, currently we have 185 Junior Achievement programs and 10 company programs that are being delivered in our schools in 90 Manitoba communities. Volunteers contributing more than 5,000 hours of personal time are certainly important in the delivery of the programs. We have something in the neighbourhood of 12,000 rural students who have participated in this program since 1993.

Our Grow Bonds Program has supported 22 projects. This has raised about $10 million in community support and is generating an additional $28 million in private capital investment. Our Grow Bonds Program is adding to Manitoba's strong job growth creating upward of 490 jobs. The intent of the Grow Bonds Program is to enable Manitobans to invest in their own home towns rather than having this investment leave the province, perhaps to investments either in eastern Canada or even outside of the country. Guaranteeing the principle offers a safety net for those who invest with confidence in their communities. Knowing, too, that they are creating an investment climate for financial stability in their communities is important to our rural communities and this small guarantee allows the communities to really take an active part in building their own community and achieving their own economic goals and objectives.

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Following the Provincial Auditor's recent report on the Grow Bonds Program, our department has taken the initiative to strengthen the program. One of the actions we have taken, which is reflected in a reallocation of the department of resources, has been to hire a compliance officer. This will ensure that the kind of due diligence that we believe is needed in the approval process is going to be carried out. Our actions have resulted in the Provincial Auditor noting that, and I quote, management has made considerable progress in addressing our recommendations, unquote. Creating jobs in rural Manitoba for that matter or anywhere else is not an easy task, and it takes a great deal of effort to create those jobs that are being created in the rural part of our province. There needs to be a lot of co-operation, as well, from entrepreneurs in the community and from all levels of government. Even then, there are no guarantees that we will succeed each and every time. We believe in the strength, the abilities and the ideas of rural Manitobans, and we will continue to utilize our Grow Bonds Program to support their efforts.

What are the benefits of all our supports to rural Manitobans? Well, I think there are many. Through new business starts supported by REDI and Grow Bonds, the results of increased employment, in investment, in tax revenue for Manitoba is certainly evident and that is growing on a daily basis. Recent bonus payments to cities, towns and villages in rural municipalities through our provincial municipal tax-sharing revenues, due in a large part to a strong economy for rural Manitoba, shows that there are benefits accruing to our rural communities when in fact businesses are created, when in fact greater taxation is received by the province and the federal government and in this way we are able to share those revenues back with our municipality.

Another reflection of the strengthening of rural Manitoba's economy is the increase in land values throughout most of the province, and we have just completed a round of reassessment in Manitoba. As noted, the increased land values across the province show that there is a strengthening of our economy in the rural part of our province and that is reflected in the values of property throughout our province.

Mr. Chairman, I think the number of jobs which has taken place of doing reassessment every four years will continue to show the importance of having equitability in the distribution of taxes in our province. Although we had embarked on a three-year reassessment cycle, because of the difficulties that appeared in the city we had to amend the legislation to allow us for a four-year reassessment cycle. Our long-term goal is to compress that cycle. However, I think even with a four-year cycle it shows that we can not only create equity between taxpayers but also it gives us a current status of where the values of our property are at. If we look at the system that we have today and compare it to what we had previous to assessment reform, we are ages ahead of where we were then. I would have to say that many other provinces are taking Manitoba's lead in this whole area of reassessment and are following some of the principles that we have adopted in terms of market-value assessment and in the way that we have phased in some of the increased assessment and allowing municipalities to phase in their increases has also been an important component of assessment reform.

So to get this process in place and to get it adopted by rural Manitobans, we have had to involve rural Manitobans with information about reassessment as well as giving them an opportunity to express their views at close to 200 open houses which have been planned throughout the province. I might say that these open houses have allowed Manitobans to come forward, to discuss their assessment, to understand their assessment better. The other thing that it has done is that it has allowed municipalities to also get a better understanding of where the assessment cycle is at. With technology today, Mr. Chairman, I have to say that we are able to pull up an individual's assessment right in a municipal office and allow him or her to compare their assessment values with properties that might be in their proximity so as to give them a better understanding of whether or not their assessment is fair, whether it reflects the market values in the area. What this does in the end is it limits the number of appeals that we have either to the Board of Revision or to the Municipal Board. Now we have not seen that yet, but I think down the road as people get more comfortable with the system we will see that the information they are getting today will build confidence that the system in fact is fair, is equitable and reflects what the true market value of their property is.

I want to spend a little time, Mr. Chairman, if I might, just talking about the empowerment of our communities. Building grassroots support is integral to the sustained community and economic growth in rural Manitoba. Manitoba Rural Development is proud to support our Community Round Tables and this concept involves the coming together of rural citizens from all walks of life. If anyone has participated in one of these round tables you will find that it is just not the economic development people who come to the round tables. Indeed, you have people from the social side, people who come from the education side, the banking side, the economic development side, the agriculture side, the manufacturing side, so there is a gathering of people from all walks of life and the purpose is singular and that is to come together and talk about what is right, what is best for the communities and how a community can build on its strengths.

It does not just have to deal with the small community because some of our larger communities are in fact experiencing some very significant, I guess, positive aspects of Community Round Tables. I remember when I first came to this department, it seemed that every community you went to was either chasing a strawboard plant or was chasing an ethanol plant and it seemed that everybody was focused on getting the same kind of project in their communities, but they were doing this because they really did not know what they should be pursuing. Once we established the round tables and we were able to focus a community on building on its strengths we found that whole notion of trying to chase the same dream disappeared and everybody then began to focus on what was best for his or her or their community and began to then pursue either projects that were created from within or projects that could be attracted to the community because of the strengths of that community.

Some of that, I guess, is evidenced by the fact that we now have a strawboard plant that has been announced for Elie. We know that, for example, the burning of straw was an issue in this Capital Region, and by now creating a project that will utilize that surplus straw in this Red River Valley and in this whole Capital Region, it is going to achieve not one goal but several. First of all, that straw that has to be taken off the land will now have an economic purpose. We will not see the clouds of smoke hovering over the city, even though we have legislation that is supposed to prevent that, but today we are turning what is a negative into a very significant positive, and a positive that is not only going to create wealth but is going to create many needed jobs in the Elie area and in the province of Manitoba.

So, coming back to the round tables, in the span of a few short years, we find that there are 84 round tables in existence today. They involve more than 140 municipalities. I think Manitoba Community Round Tables have aroused the interest from community groups not just in this province but, indeed, around the world. I have to give an example of someone from England who happened to be in touch with one of our economic development officers in London, who wanted to know more about our Community Round Tables and about the economic development in rural Manitoba, because it seemed to capture their attention and seemed to address some of the issues that they are dealing with as far away as that country. So this is a movement, I think, that is catching on in other parts of this country and other parts of the world as well.

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Mr. Chairman, as I say, it highlights the importance of involving Manitobans at all levels. It also shows how much creativity and ingenuity Manitobans have and their willingness to work together for a common purpose. I guess the strawboard plant is one example, but if you look at the tire recycling project in Winkler, Manitoba, it is another example of a product that we had a surplus of. I think we can all remember some of the disasters of the black clouds of smoke when tire piles caught on fire and the damage that they were doing to the environment. Today in Manitoba I am proud to say that we have probably utilized all of our surplus used tires and are looking elsewhere for a supply of tires as well. We have created not only economic wealth, but we have rid ourselves of a problem that was becoming an environmental hazard to all of us.

The solution did not come from us in government or from opposition; it came from Manitobans who were given a challenge. I think that once again Manitobans have shown their creativity and ingenuity in coming up with a solution when they have been presented with a problem.

In closing, once again I would like to extend my thanks to all of our citizens in the rural part of this province for their continuing to have faith in our department and to work with our department in co-operation with any kind of initiative that we have embarked on. As we deal with the problem that is before us now of flooding in the southern part of our province, I know that municipalities have done a tremendous job so far. I know that they are probably under extreme stress right now as they fight the waters that are coming our way in trying to protect their communities. I want to assure them that as a department, although it is not our mandate in terms of protecting these communities, we will work as effectively and as hard as we can to ensure that we are a facilitator and a catalyst in trying to solve some of these problems.

Mr. Chairman, I also would like to indicate at this time that the result of the improved quality of life for all our rural citizens is the result of many hours and many days and many years of hard work, and this, I think, is starting to bear some fruit because no matter where I travel in the rural part of our province, whether it is in the southern rural side or whether it is in northern Manitoba, we are finding a change in attitude, an attitude today that seems to exist out there which speaks to the challenges but also talks about the opportunities that lie ahead of us. If we in fact have changed the attitude, I think we have accomplished a great deal.

I was in northern Manitoba not more than a month ago. I would have to say that in northern Manitoba we have a very optimistic group of communities who are looking at their own communities and at their own resources. As a matter of fact, I was given a bit of a challenge. I was asked whether or not I have ever heard of farming without a plow. I did not know what they were talking about until they explained to me that some of the natural fruits and berries that grow in northern Manitoba are certainly prime as an agricultural product and can find their ways into many of our markets not only Manitoba, but indeed outside of province.

So there are opportunities out there. I guess there is a reason to be optimistic. All we have to do is to ensure that we give the communities the kinds of tools that they need to work with to achieve their goals and their dreams.

To conclude, Mr. Chairman, I would like to also add my sincere thanks and gratitude to my deputy minister and my staff in the Department of Rural Development, who have worked very hard over the past five years in the tenure of my being minister of that department. I think they have done a really tremendous job in leading this department. I think we are going to see once again their efforts being rewarded when we celebrate the successes of rural Manitobans at Rural Forum 97 which is going to be held in Brandon from May 8 to 10.

With that, I conclude my opening remarks. I look forward to the remarks from my honourable critic, the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans).

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): We thank the honourable Minister of Rural Development for those comments. Does the critic for the official opposition, the member for Interlake, have opening comments?

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Yes, I do have a few. It was quite enlightening to hear the minister talk about the department, its accomplishments and why the department is in place. I am pleased to see that we do have--and I say we being a rural member and critic now of Rural Development for the past three or four years I believe. Fours years, it is almost like a marriage already--

Mr. Derkach: Let us not get that close.

Mr. Clif Evans: We are pleased to see that the government of the day has seen fit to keep the funding available for rural development. The minister's comments with respect to the REDI programs, the round tables, the grassroots, the amount of money being generated within our communities due to the rural development initiatives, the jobs, are a plus. I really feel strongly about that and will support that. Some of the initiatives of course--and as the minister indicated--do come and have to come from our grassroots people, from the people that we want to be able to maintain in our communities.

There are different projects throughout Manitoba that, to certain communities, could provide an economic boost. Hopefully with the support and continued support I would say of the Rural Development Department, some of our communities will be able to enhance the opportunity and see success at the end of the road when it comes to dealing with whatever possible way that they can get the economic development flowing into their areas. For example in my area and my home community--and I want to say my home community--in my constituency, Riverton, we were pleased to see that Gromar from Alberta has already completed a feasibility study for peat moss, an initiative that came about rather just abruptly when the Sungro people and the Premier people came to a council meeting to inform council that they needed council's support not to go ahead with the Hecla Island area becoming a federal park because lo and behold, there is somewhere of 75 to 100 years of peat moss there and the potential of 200-plus jobs.

So the initiative was started through that for the community, and now I hope, certainly, that the department has been involved, of course, with the REDI section, and hopefully, if there is anything else that Rural Development can assist that community in achieving the future plants and the future harvesting of peat moss and, of course, the future of jobs in that area, and being an area that is dependent on its farming and fishing, such an industry would be a great plus for the whole area, not just for the Riverton community.

I appreciate the comments the minister has made about keeping rural Manitobans in rural Manitoba. That, I believe, is something that is very, very important to our communities throughout the province. Whatever initiatives can be brought to light to do that, I think we have to work very, very diligently as communities, as people, with the government of the day to maintain that and increase it. Certainly, as we know, in some areas of the province, unfortunately population has dwindled and has dropped due to many circumstances, lack of jobs being one of them and, of course, education.

For our young people to get their education, they must leave, and some do not come back. Hopefully, through some of the initiatives that are in place and will be in place for the future, we will get our young people back to their home communities and deal with the initiatives, deal with the grassroots people who are still there to enhance that community for the future, for their future and for the future of our younger people who reside there.

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Having been a rural member as far as living for the last 13, 14 years, Mr. Chairman, I really feel that rural development--and I am proud of that. I am proud of the fact that I was one who went to the rural area and started a new life in rural Manitoba regardless of what type of business or transactions that took me out to rural Manitoba. It was a pleasure to do that.

But I have also seen, living in some of these communities and representing some of the communities, the problem with being able to find the right initiative which has become increasingly great for some of the communities. Some communities have been fortunate enough to fall upon an idea, to fall upon an initiative such as the peat moss in Riverton or the Grow Bond issue in Arborg and some of the other communities, but some communities are having a difficult time with that, and these communities are involved in round tables. I just say that hopefully these communities, if an idea does come up, will be able to come to this minister and to whatever program that is available to help them enlighten that goal that they have or find to prepare themselves and get moving with some initiatives.

The minister is right that the Crow rate has forced diversification and has perhaps in some communities--and we talk about sustainable development, which we will discuss during the Estimates process, and the upcoming act. Sustainability in certain areas has become an important issue, but the minister has to understand that there are other parts of the whole scope that could affect, perhaps negatively, some of the other areas that have, of course, resulted with the forced diversification of our farmers and our communities. We will, during the Estimates process, I hope, discuss this with the minister because the minister has to also provide I think--and besides the catalyst support and the service support that his department does have for our rural people, he has to also remember that other aspects of government, other aspects of the situations that people are dealing with in rural Manitoba is an important arm of Rural Development and economic development for communities.

We are hoping that the minister will in due process, in due time, support rural Manitobans when it comes to the fact that their infrastructure is affected, to look at the fact that the minister will support when through diversification communities are looking to Rural Development to help them when it comes to an aspect that because of diversification another department is going to be affected, their water resources, tourism and things like that. Hopefully, we will be able to have this minister and this department take all that in mind when the time comes. We are certainly looking toward new things happening in rural Manitoba, and we certainly want to see projects in our communities continue, increase.

I want to say that I would also like to point out that being a part of the new Municipal Act, as far as being the opposition critic, if that was a part, but I had the opportunity of sitting in on many meetings when the act was being drafted up, and we are pleased with the new act. I can tell the minister that members of councils in my communities have changed over to the new act. The LGDs have become R.M.s as of January 1 with a good transition. I have heard nothing negative as yet, so I am pleased to have been a small part of that, and hopefully play a part if, in fact, there are communities that feel that there has to be changes and will approach the minister.

With that, I want to also say that I would like to see the department continue with its good work. I would also like the minister to be very up front with us in the opposition, with myself as critic.

When it comes to issues during the Estimates process, we will get into the Grow Bonds issue. It is like I told the minister during Interim Supply about the Grow Bonds issues, that this member and I think all members would be very up front with the minister if, in fact, the return was there, that the minister would always be up front with us when we ask the minister certain things, that I want that to be set in place. We do not need to bring any sort of harm, if you want to call it that, or any sort of doubt about any of the programs or about what is going on without being up front with the people because it is the people's money that we are dealing with. We will go into the Grow Bonds issues further at a further time.

With that, too, I would also like to just add my compliments to the department staff from the deputy minister right down to wherever of the whole department. I think I have had good co-operation from the department and from the deputy minister and the ADMs. The Executive Support staff have not, at any time that I can remember, ever said, well, we will have to talk to the minister first before we talk to you, which is greatly appreciated, and I thank them for that. I think they are doing a good job.

I guess that is pretty well my opening statement. I just want to say, too, in closing that I will continue to work with the minister as long as the minister will continue to work with myself and members of the opposition or other members, that we have to work together with rural development. I think right now the Rural Development department has to play a strong role, perhaps even a stronger role, in getting our rural economy on the upswing. If it is on the upswing, as the minister has indicated, I feel there is room for greater improvement as far as that goes. So with those opening remarks, I look forward to the Estimates process.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the critic for the official opposition party for those remarks.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item to be considered for the Estimates of a department, and, accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line.

Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and ask that the minister introduce his staff present.

Mr. Derkach: It is my pleasure to introduce at this time my Deputy Minister Winston Hodgins, and, in addition, Brian Johnston, who is the chief of financial services in the department, and also joining us is Ms. Aline Zöllner, who is the deputy minister's special assistant.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the minister for the introduction, and we will now proceed to line 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 114 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Clif Evans: I just basically would like a quick breakdown. You know, I could look through the book, but I understand, of course, the deputy minister's position entails more than just being the deputy minister of the department. Could the minister just outline some of the roles that the deputy minister does have and where his position takes him besides being Deputy Minister of Rural Development?

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Mr. Derkach: As in any other department, the deputy minister is the chief executive officer of the department. He is responsible for all administrative matters as they relate to the department, and, in addition, any special operating agencies that fall within the purview of the department. In addition, the deputy minister also presides over several, or is attached to several boards that are associated with the department. He is also responsible for the Manitoba Water Services Board, the Leaf Rapids properties, which he, along with some other senior staff in government sort of form the corporate board for that particular property. He also sits on the Municipal Employees Benefits Board. I think he is chair of that board, as well. In addition to that, he is also responsible for co-ordinating activities between departments that have interests that reflect rural Manitobans' wants and needs. He also acts as a co-ordinating individual for the sectors that discuss matters which relate to rural Manitobans and which affect rural Manitobans as well. In addition to that, he also has responsibility over the assessment area as the chief operating officer, so therefore that involves him having discussions and deliberations with the City of Winnipeg as well.

So that is sort of a general, if you wish, overview of the responsibilities and duties of the deputy minister of the department.

Mr. Clif Evans: Could the minister just indicate--it is such a small decrease in Executive Support funding and it does not show any drop of staff, but it does show an $8,000 decrease. It is a small number, but what would be the cause of that increase, or decrease--I am sorry--even though it is in administrative support, yet the staffing has not changed?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, from time to time staff change in a department and when that happens sometimes a senior staffperson will change, and you will hire at the entrance level. The decrease in this particular area reflects a vacant position which was then filled at the entry level.

Mr. Clif Evans: So what the minister is indicating is, there has been, in administrative support staffing, a change of people due to one leaving and hiring someone else.

Mr. Derkach: Or vacancy.

Mr. Clif Evans: Or a vacancy. Okay.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $400,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $78,000.

Mr. Clif Evans: I am sorry if I missed something. We were on 1.(b) Executive Support, and what happened to 1.(c)?

An Honourable Member: We are still on (b).

Mr. Clif Evans: We are still on (b)? Am I missing something?

An Honourable Member: No, nothing.

Mr. Clif Evans: Okay.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 1.(b) (2) Other Expenditures $78,000--pass.

1.(c) Brandon Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Clif Evans: In the past, I see that the Brandon office--has the minister cut the Brandon office down--not in staffing, I see, but in cost? Is this, again, due to changes in staffing and replacing staffing at lower rates of pay, and if there have been staff changes, for what reason, or what kind of staffing is in place there now?

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Derkach: Basically the same answer, Mr. Chairman, as previously with regard to filling vacancies of positions. I would just like to tell the member, for example, in the director's position, where we had it at $59,700, we now have reduced it to $46,800. In one of the other categories, here at the administrative assistant level, we were up at $51,800, and that has been downsized to $35,900.

Mr. Clif Evans: Okay, so the totals that are shown in the Estimate book are the totals of the two employees at $77,900 as compared to $93,700. So has anybody been changed in that office? Is it the same people? Obviously not, if there has been a change of costing.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the staffing levels are still the same. It is just that, as we have vacant positions and we fill them, we fill them with people who perhaps are not at the level of experience that the former positions had; therefore, you can reduce your costs in that way.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 1.Administration and Finance (c) Brandon Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $136,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $53,400--pass.

1.(d) Human Resource Management (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $114,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $20,900--pass.

l.(e) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $312,600.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, I notice with interest, of course at the bottom it indicates that there is an increase due to the addition of an executive director position within this part of the department. I noticed also, going back, that in '95-96 Estimates the managerial position was at $51,800. It went up to $56,500. Now, of course, we have got the other position that the minister's Estimates indicate here, that of executive director. Who has been hired as executive director for this department? What is his or her goal or mandate within Financial and Administrative Services?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, because of the new programs that have come on stream in the past number of years, and in order to try and ensure that we have proper accounting functions or, I guess, procedures in place, we feel, and of course I think it has been referred to in reports, that a comptroller's position would probably be beneficial to the department. This is a position that will be advertised. We do not have that position in place at this point in time, but it will be advertised, and that will be done very shortly.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, the minister has indicated that there is a necessity for a position such as this. Is there any difficulty or is it just a matter of work that is there that the one managerial position cannot handle? If that is the case, that is fine. If the minister then could just indicate, he said it was going to be advertised soon, when can we see that and when can we see the hiring of that position?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, as the member knows, there has been significant growth I think in the activities of the department over the last four or five years, and that has put extreme, I think, stress and pressure on the staff that are in this particular area. So we feel very confident that assistance in this area will help our overall function of this area through the department. This position will be advertised very shortly, within the next few weeks. It probably takes another month or month and a half, at least, after the advertising goes out in order to be able to screen and get the individual in place. So I would say that within the next three months we will have this position filled. Unfortunately, it is a slow process, but that is an established process that we have to follow.

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Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, I appreciate those comments. I do appreciate the fact that the minister has indicated that the work level within the department has probably increased substantially in some of the areas. If that is what it takes to make sure that part of the department runs more efficiently, then I feel that is the way to go. I have no problems with that.

Under Other Expenditures, if I could--and, again, just some of these questions that I just would like to be answered, not really knowing. I appreciate the minister's co-operation and support.

Under Transfer last year there was a loss of $9,300. This year there is no loss. What did that include? What part?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, in the past fiscal year, there was a need to enhance the Small Business section of our department. Therefore, some funding was taken out of this area to bolster the Small Business section of the department, and that is why there is a decrease of 9.3 in that particular column. This year that was not a requirement, and therefore there is no figure in that particular area.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 1.(e) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $312,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $188,200--pass.

2. Boards (a) Municipal Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Clif Evans: Going back to my notes from last year's Estimates on the Municipal Board, the minister had indicated--when I asked the question of how the board meets and how often--that there was a backlog last year, a substantial backlog, I understand. Can he put us up to date with the Municipal Board's mandate since last year? I understand there is, of course, a new chairman who has been permanently positioned now for the Municipal Board.

Mr. Derkach: Joining our table, Mr. Chairman, just before I answer the question, is Marie Elliott, who is the assistant deputy minister responsible for local government.

With regard to the question about Municipal Board, yes, it is true. The member is correct. Last year we had a significant backlog. That backlog is still significant, and because of the appeals that were coming to us from the city, the workload was becoming such that it was evident we needed additional staff. As the member knows, we appointed additional members to the Municipal Board, especially from the city of Winnipeg, to deal with the appeals that were coming from the city of Winnipeg.

That was done a couple of months ago, and, in addition to that, we have increased our staff complement by one in adding an executive director position to the Municipal Board. That person is someone whom the member may know. She was involved in The Municipal Act. Ms. Dianne Flood is the individual that was hired for that position. Her position is executive director, and Mr. Bob Smellie is still the overall chair of the board, and basically the complement is at that level.

Now, in terms of the numbers of appeals, if I could just take a moment, Mr. Chairman, if I might, I would just like to go back to 1995. In the annual report it shows that there were 695 new appeals and referrals received. In 1996 that went up to 806. If you were to look at the numbers today, now they vary from week to week, I guess, but we are down, we are at about 734 as compared to the 806. But that may increase because as you know there are appeals that keep coming to the board at all times.

The board is now sitting with more committees, more committees of the board, so therefore they can deal with more appeals. What we are finding, though, is that although the board calls hearings, many times just days or a day before the hearing is held, the matter is resolved and the board does not have to sit, which is just as good as well because it means a quicker resolution. We are seeing a significant number of those being resolved before they hit the board level.

Mr. Clif Evans: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Minister, the '97 number that you gave just towards the end there, you had a number after your '96, you said 806 appeal of referrals. You gave another number.

Mr. Derkach: At the end of December of 1996 the applications, appeals and referrals that were outstanding was at 734. At the end of 1995 there were 493. So that number is up because as you know there have been significant numbers of appeals to the board, especially at the urban level.

Mr. Clif Evans: So even though the numbers are up as far as application for the process at year-end, at the end of December, these numbers you have given are the numbers of cases that were heard and decisions were made on.

Mr. Derkach: Those are the referrals that were made to the board. Now as I indicated, sometimes, or oftentimes, a referral that goes to the board may be resolved just prior to a panel meeting. Although a panel is called, it may be days, or a day, before the panel actually gets together, a referral that has been made to the board has been resolved, then the panel does not have to meet. That has happened on several occasions. As a matter of fact, we have had people who have travelled long distances to a panel, arrive only to find out that the meetings have been cancelled, because the matters that were before them have been resolved either between the assessor, the appellant or through the lawyers. So the hearing is not needed then.

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Mr. Clif Evans: The minister has explained one staffing addition with the executive director. There have been three new positions since '95-96. Of course, we see the increase of the executive director. What were the other two positions since '95-96? Were those administrative support? I see under this '97-98 over '96-97 is, of course, one staff increase in managerial which will be the executive director. The other two positions that the Municipal Board has received, what were they?

Mr. Derkach: The member might recall there was an amalgamation at the board level between the Land Value Appraisal Commission and the Municipal Board, so that, in essence, has added the staff complements that are referred to in his question.

Mr. Clif Evans: The executive director position has been in place for how long now? Has it been a full fiscal year or has it been a part year?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I would say that position has been in place approximately three months. It was a seconded position from the Department of Justice.

Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister then just provide us with a job description of this executive director and why absconded from the Department of Justice? What is the relationship?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the executive director's position is basically to complement the work that is being done by the chair of the Municipal Board. In addition to this, this particular individual has taken on the role of vice-chair and also chairs some of the panels that are called.

Being a professional lawyer, her role is to not only write decisions that are made by panels or the board but also to do the internal work of the Municipal Board in preparing cases and in scheduling cases and making sure that all of the necessary footwork is done by staff in order to be able to have the cases ready to go before the different panels.

So in other words, she will assist the chair to oversee other panels that are set up by the Municipal Board. In essence, as an executive director, her role is to oversee, to review and to write decisions that are made by the board.

Mr. Clif Evans: The stipends for the board members at $134,006 have pretty well stayed the same, I believe, but I do not know if we have ever questioned or had reason to question. The stipend is for the 26 board members, not for the chair, of course, neither for the executive director.

So what does the department pay for its board members? How do they pay them, on a per diem, travel, et cetera? How do they come about those numbers?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, we try to co-ordinate the per diems that are paid to board members throughout government, although they are not all exactly the same. We take into account the workload of a particular board and also, I guess, the degree of expertise that is required on a board. Also, we pay for such things as travel time, out-of-pocket expenses and meals, and it varies between chairpersons who have to do extra work, chairpersons of panels, down to members who are not responsible for chairing any panels and that sort of thing.

Now, would the member like me to read the per diems as they are for each of the categories?

Mr. Clif Evans: No, just the basic numbers.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, as I said, it varies depending on the position that is taken by an individual. If you are an acting chairman and you spend less than three and half hours, the rate is $138. For an acting chairman for more than three and a half hours, it is $243, and for more than eight hours, it is $303. A member for a meeting for less than three and a half hours is $79. A member for more than three and a half hours is $139, and for more than eight hours, it is $199.

Basically, those are the rates. An acting chairman who is required to do preparatory work will also be paid $138 for the work that is required to do for less than three and a half hours.

Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that. I know that there are, of course, lots of appeals and referrals. I asked the minister about this a couple of years ago, as far as members of this board have to travel helter-skelter across the province to hear these appeals and referrals and applications.

How often would one member, per year, just one board member--how many meetings would he or she have to sit in on over an average year?

Mr. Derkach: It varies, Mr. Chairman, because it depends on where the hearings are. We try to utilize the expertise of people in regions where they live, and so, therefore, if it is a city appeal, and the predominance of appeals is a city, we try to use as many of the urban board members as possible, but it does not exclude rural members. For example, if we are hearing cases in northern Manitoba, we will try to use as many people from northern Manitoba as possible. If it is in western Manitoba, we do likewise, so we try to spread it around.

There is no formula or no regular amount that any one member would receive. It would depend on the availability of their time when they are called on, secondly, where the appeals are, and, thirdly, I guess, expertise in certain situations. People who have some background, for example, in commercial property, we would use their expertise in that regard. If they have expertise in residential property, if they have been a former appraiser or sales manager for properties, then we would utilize their expertise in that area, real estate agents and so forth.

Mr. Clif Evans: Of course, too, you would see how many appeals or cases would want to be heard in a specific area. Let us say in the northern region, the board would not meet just for one specific issue, would they? I mean, there would obviously have to be a period of time where you could co-ordinate a whole bunch of appeals all at one time or over a period of two days so that members are not going back and forth. I am hoping that is the way it works.

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Mr. Derkach: We try to, and the board chairperson attempts to be as efficient as possible in scheduling hearings. We do not delay hearings, but on the other hand if we are hearing cases in a remoter region from the city, we try to ensure that there is at least a full day of work for the members if that is possible, but sometimes that is not possible, and you have to hear a case. If there is one that is outstanding and there are no others coming forward, you do have to hear those.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Moving down then on Boards.

2.(a) Municipal Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $559,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $216,700--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($57,400).

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, I would like to just ask, and I do not believe I have before on this note, what this line is.

Mr. Derkach: The Recoverable line?

Mr. Clif Evans: Yes.

Mr. Derkach: That is money that is recoverable from the Department of Government Services for the work that is done on their behalf by the Land Value Appraisal Commission.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 2.(a)(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($57,400)--pass.

2.(b) Surface Rights Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $20,600.

Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister just indicate the reasons for this slight drop in both Salaries and Other Employee Benefits? There are no staff years, of course, because it is a board, but of course we see increases in the Municipal Board side. We see increases of staff. Can the minister indicate why, again, a small drop of $5,000?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, this is a result of activity that the members are involved in. As the member knows, the more activity there is, the more times they have to meet, and therefore their stipends will go up. It varies from year to year, so it is not a constant. Seeing what is happening in the oil patch right now, I would project that you will probably see an increase in this particular area in the coming year. So it dips up and down depending on the amount of activity there is in this whole area of Surface Rights.

Mr. Clif Evans: The board itself, and the minister can correct me if I am wrong, is that the board, the Surface Rights Board, that we went to last year for an annual meeting, with other provinces also that were in attendance? The chair of that board is who, and if the minister could just indicate who the five board members are, please.

Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to. The chair of the board is Mr. Cowan. The members of the board are Mr. Carey, Mrs. Hodgson, Mr. Cochrane and Mr. Tolton. Now I maybe should have indicated where they are from. Mr. Cowan is from Hartney; Mr. Carey is from Deloraine; Mrs. Hodson is from Birtle; Mr. Cochran is from Hamiota, and Mr. Tolton is from Kenton. Now I should say also that we try to get the board from the region of the province where you have oil activity and where there is activity for the Surface Rights duty. So that is why you will see a concentration of people from the southwestern side of the province.

Mr. Clif Evans: With the introduction of legislation last year that was passed, does the minister foresee any benefit as far as disputes with the act that was passed, the legislation, with the board or with oil companies and, of course, with the landowners?

Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Chair, what it was designed to do was to limit the amount of time that a rig had to sit on the side of the road after there was an agreement between the landowner and the driller, or the drilling company. In the old part of the act there was a provision where there had to be 72 hours between the time that the agreement was struck and the actual, I guess, inaction or action of the work. In the act we said if there was agreement, mutual agreement, between the two parties, that the 72 hours could be waived and that the driller could go in immediately and begin drilling.

Mr. Clif Evans: That is what I was referring to, and so hopefully will that prevent more of having to hear these disputes that the Surface Rights Board has had to deal with? Will that assist that or not?

Mr. Derkach: No, I do not think it will, Mr. Chair. I do not think it is going to impact significantly on the work of the Surface Rights Board, but all that the act does is, if there is mutual agreement, it allows the individual to get on the land earlier, but it really does not have any positive or negative impact on issues that the Surface Rights Board has to deal with.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 2.(b) Surface Rights Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $20,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $15,400--pass.

Resolution 13.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $755,000 for Rural Development, for Boards, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

13.3. Small Business and Corporate Planning Services (a) Corporate Planning and Business Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Clif Evans: I can read through of course on page 36, the Objectives. Could the minister just provide us with a little bit of a breakdown on the activity within this part of the department, what we see so far that has been done, and what we are hoping or will get done? Some of the objectives are listed here, but if he could just enhance us a bit more on what this part of his department does.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce at this time Mr. Ron Riopka, who is the executive director of the Corporate Development branch, and also Mr. Paul Staats, who joined the branch a while ago and is in charge of the Small Business and Community Support Branch.

In terms of the responsibilities of this branch, Mr. Chair, first of all, on the Corporate Planning and Business Development side, this branch provides the management and the co-ordination of policies and programs and procedures within the department. It also helps our Local Government Services and our sustainable land and resource management side, and it also includes the responsibility for the operations of Interdepartmental Planning Board and the Provincial Land Use Committee.

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This particular branch is the one that is also involved in I guess much of the work that goes into putting on our annual forum. The staff is extremely busy throughout the year, and as the member knows this year we have undertaken another responsibility, and that is the Canada-Ukraine Business Initiative. We have the responsibility of putting on the construction symposium that will be held in Winnipeg in June and, again, this is the branch that is largely responsible for that area as well.

As you well know, this branch has also been active in such things as airport area plan, the Sustainable Development legislation, our Capital Region's waste management task force, the Sustainable Development Strategy of the department, and co-ordinating between ourselves and other departments. There is an extremely large workload when it comes to the Provincial Land Use Committee, and the Provincial Land Use Policies of the department and of municipalities, and also involved in the Capital Region's committee work, which, as you know, is a significant amount of work as well. Then, in addition to that, when we talk about The Planning Act and sort of the overview and the management of what happens under that particular act, this particular branch is involved in that fairly extensively, and as we get into reviewing The Planning Act, you will find that this branch is going to have a very major role to play in that regard as well.

So it is a very, very busy part of the department, one that I think sometimes to myself, how in the world did they ever get the things that they do accomplished, but they do extremely well. If you want an example of that, the Rural Forum is just a tremendous undertaking. Last year, as you know, the forum was attended by some 10,000 people. This year we are expecting at least the same. The co-ordination, the management, the planning that goes into that is almost incredible, and I have to say that this particular department has done an extremely efficient and effective job at that.

I have to also say that it is not just this branch that puts on the Rural Forum. This branch provides the co-ordination within the department to do it and also between other departments, but I have to say that every part of the department gets involved almost on a voluntary basis in putting on the forum. I have seen planners, I have seen people from the Water Services Board on their own time come in and work on a volunteer basis to put on the forum, and if you were at Winter Cities last year, you also saw that there was involvement by the spouses of these staff people in these events. So a tremendous amount of commitment to the task, and I am very proud and very happy to have a component of this kind in the department.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister can correct me if I am wrong. This part of the department since '95-96 has lost funding, has had a decrease in staffing, and again, you can correct me if I am wrong, but I see numbers of $744,000 to an expenditure of $683,000 in '96-97 to a slight increase in potential budgeting of $695,800. I see that there was a loss in administration of a position. Can the minister explain the decrease, and, of course, did the staff change?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I think the member is probably going back to 1995. Is that correct?

Mr. Clif Evans: 1995-96.

Mr. Derkach: 1995-96. Okay.

Mr. Clif Evans: Yes, I am going back to the line, but I am using the '96-97 Departmental Expenditures Estimates, which last year shows three administrative support at $104,006. I go to this year's book, and again I could be wrong here in my interpretation of all this, but I see the minister's support down to two at a level of $59,400; yet under '96 expenditures we see--so I am asking the minister, why the difference between what I saw in the '96-97 book and the '97-98 book?

Mr. Derkach: How far back do you want to go?

Mr. Clif Evans: I just want to know why the numbers changed so quickly.

Mr. Derkach: Well, the member is going back actually two years and showing the differences.

Mr. Clif Evans: Not really.

Mr. Derkach: Yes, you are, because in 1996-97, if you look at the SYs, they are same as they are for '97-98. However, if you go back to '95-96, you will see a difference. The reason for that is that we did establish a new branch, if you like, within the department. It is called the Small Business and Community Support Branch. We had to find some staff resources for this particular branch, and we took resources out of the Corporate Planning and Business Development Branch and transferred them over to the Small Business and Community Support Branch. That is why you see the difference in numbers.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, we will talk about the Small Business and Community Support. So the minister is telling me that staff--but I am not wrong, because it is in black and white here.

Mr. Derkach: I did not say you were wrong. I said you just go back too far.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, so you are telling me that the administrative support went from this part of the department to this new part of the department?

Mr. Derkach: That is correct. A new branch was established and that is where we transferred staff to.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, so basically the minister is telling me that is where the whole line of the difference between your '95-96 down to '96-97 and, of course, again, but then there was the increase in the '97-98.

Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, can the minister--just for the sake of some here and for myself--just explain a bit in short, or as short as possible, without going into too much detail, because I am going ask about the Rural Forum, and I would just like the minister to elaborate a bit on the upcoming Rural Forum and what we are expecting.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, yes, I would be happy to. As the member knows, this will be the fifth year of Rural Forum. I believe it is five. Is that correct? Yes, it is year No. 5 for Rural Forum. Each year, we have built on the successes of the previous year by expanding perhaps the types of activities that we have showcased at the forum, based on the interviews and based on, I guess, the evaluations that have come to us from rural Manitobans. We have tried to ensure that we do follow what it is rural Manitobans are telling us about the kinds of things that they would like to see at the forum.

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In addition, the member knows, we also have a Rural Advisory Committee who plays a very significant role in setting the direction for the kinds of things that happen at Rural Forum. So each year we have built on the previous year's successes and on what Manitobans want. This year, we are, once again, adding to the forum a component that we did not have last year--two components. One being some seminars on the export side of small business to again indicate or show rural businesses how they could take advantage of export markets around the globe. In addition to that, we have a reverse trade show that will involve a couple of Crown corporations. Many Manitobans do not know the types of products and services that we in government or our Crown corporations purchase or for that matter our SOAs purchase, so we have asked two of our Crowns to put on what we call a reverse trade show so that rural Manitoba businesses can become more aware of the kinds of services and products that we buy in government or government agencies.

In addition to that, we are focusing this year on building stronger partnerships among the public and private sectors, celebrating a rural entrepreneurial culture and the accomplishments. In addition to that, you will see the flavour of rural Manitoba enhanced. How many exhibits have we got? How many in the food court? [interjection] We have 30 exhibits in the food court and we are trying to keep to that number to ensure that there is some control over that area, because that can certainly grow out of proportion, so those who come to Rural Forum, you have to give them an opportunity to seize the opportunities and find it a success.

Our exhibits will grow this year to probably 325-plus. The registrations that are coming in now, I understand, are coming in fast and furious. In addition to that, we are expecting more than 400 youth. I am told that that may, in fact, increase substantially. We are even seeing that this year we probably will see some urban youth participate in the forum who are showcasing some of the programs that they are involved in in their schools.

Junior Achievement, as you know, is a very key cornerstone, if you like, of the forum in terms of youth, and it has been an extreme success. Last year it was just a pleasure participating in the Junior Achievement business game that they had that took up the entire day. When you walked into the area that they were working in, there was just a hum all day long. A very enthusiastic and energetic group of young people.

In addition to that, we also had the business game competition, the final competition at Rural Forum last year, and that will take place again this year. The Innovators Showcase goes on again this year. That was a Saturday event, I believe, last year, and it will be the same this year.

Then, of course, we have the minister's reception on Thursday night, and I would invite all of the opposition members to the minister's reception that is put on on Thursday night. It is an opportunity to dialogue with people in rural Manitoba who are actually involved in some leadership roles in business and that sort of thing, so I invite opposition members to that particular event.

Then on Friday evening is the main banquet and, once again, I extend the invitation to opposition members to that event as well. That is a banquet, and we also showcase some of our youth in their entertainment and so forth at that particular event. This year, we will be launching a youth group that will be performing at the evening which, I think, will be exciting for members to see. This will be the Friday evening. Also, I should have mentioned that on Thursday morning we have the opening ceremonies at which time we will feature the Premier of the province (Mr. Filmon), and a keynote speaker will also be introduced at that time. This year we are happy to have Roberta Bondar with us who is sponsored by the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce who will be there.

I have to say, overall, we have had a fairly enthusiastic partnership arrangement where we are finding more and more companies coming to us and asking us if they can assist in one way or another at the forum. Manitoba Food Processors are an important part of the forum this year. They have been since their beginnings, and they are taking a more and more active role in the forum. Our Union of Manitoba Municipalities and our MAUM organization have taken a very active role, and the Chamber of Commerce of Manitoba, a very key contributor. In addition to that, our schools and our Assiniboine Community College, and within the college, of course, we have the chefs' program, they do all of the, if you like, the co-ordination of the food court.

(Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Besides that, Mr. Chairman, I should say that the Business Administration program of Assiniboine Community College does all of the financial services for the food court and all of the accounting for the food court, and this is part of their program as well. On our organizing committee, we have 18 different partners representing different organizations, so it has become a fairly significant event. We are almost to the point where we are going to be requiring additional resources to help put this event on because of the enormous task that it is for us.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that. I am certainly hoping that I will be able to attend some portion of it. I had attended in the past and--

Mr. Derkach: All it takes is a pair.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister indicates it will take a pair. Probably an invitation in gold lettering might help that. Some of my young people--I say my young people--communities from my area have attended and have been very, very pleased with it. This is obviously costly. Does the department recover the costs to this forum through the registration fees, and does it cost Rural Development money and how much?

Mr. Derkach: As the member knows, when we first started the forum, we paid the total costs of it, and they were significant. But, as the forum has grown, so have our partners. We have actively sought sponsorship for the forum, but we try to keep the registration fees at a minimum to allow the small businesses to participate because if you raise the registration fee to small business, they simply cannot afford to come. As you know, many of these businesses are one- and two-person operations, and that is really the focus of the forum: to give those fledgling businesses an opportunity to showcase their products and their services. So we try to limit the registration fee for them. We also have to limit the registration fee for our youth, because they are certainly not able to afford the expensive registration fees that you sometimes have with a forum of this calibre. Therefore, we do have to support the forum.

Last year, I think, our support to the forum financially was about $150,000 or thereabouts. This year we are looking at about $100,000, so we are able to recover more of our costs this year than we did last year. I think that will continue. As we grow and as we mature, the forum will become more and more self-sustaining. It is not there yet. We do not anticipate that it would be this year. If you just do a comparison of what it costs to put on a forum like this, I think the budget for Winter Cities last year was about $3 million to put that show on. I do not know how many of the opposition members might have attended it, but I think the critic did. If you compare that--[interjection] You did; Mr. Sale did as well--to Rural Forum, it costs us in the neighbourhood of half a million dollars to put that forum on and there were 10,000 people who went through the doors last year.

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The reason we are able to do it at such a reduced cost is because the City of Brandon, the Brandon Chamber of Commerce and all of our partners have been extremely helpful in shouldering many of the sort of the costs, the incidental costs that sometimes go unnoticed. For example, the setting at Rural Forum is done by volunteer hands. Staff from our department will work at setting up Rural Forum in their spare time. I mean, there are many, many hours of overtime logged that never get recorded or never get logged in the books by staff in the department, their spouses and also by the administration of the City of Brandon, the Chamber of Commerce and many other individuals. We have people helping us from all walks of life including seniors and youth. It is estimated that over 300 volunteers have given in kind support to the forum. So for that reason, we are able to put it on at a cost that is fairly small compared to what a similar event, smaller by many times than Forum, would have cost in the city.

Mr. Clif Evans: If you would please, the minister has a response prior to--

Mr. Derkach: I just want to add one thing, if I might, Mr. Chair. My deputy just informed me that the registration fees for forum are $150. To register as a comparison at Winter Cities, the cost was from $700 to $800. So our registration fees are substantially lower, but we feel that we have to keep them there in order to be able to attract those small businesses who cannot afford a $500 or $600 or $700 registration fee.

Mr. Clif Evans: On a lighter note, I want to ask the minister: Does the minister have a personal chef this year?

Mr. Derkach: I thank the member for that question. That was almost a humorous little note, but I was a little insulted by that reference because the individual, and I forget his name now, Dennis Hewitt, was a volunteer who came forward to forum three forums ago and gave of his time to try and enhance the food court area. I do not know how many extra hours this individual put in, but it was countless. In addition to that, he asked whether or not he could do the reception, the minister's reception, and once again he used his talent and his creativity to create what was an extremely nice atmosphere at the reception, and the products that he prepared were all Manitoba products. Last year, by and large, he did the same. The department did have to pay him for some of his time, because there were just countless of hours and he was a member of the organizing committee last year.

I think he was a complement, because what he did was he worked with the young chefs or the student chefs out of Assiniboine Community College, organized them in a demonstration. He did the same for Winter Cities, and I thought it was a hit in terms of showcasing Manitoba food products at Rural Forum. He also gave it a bit of prestige in terms of the kinds of products that he prepared and was able to have many of our residents sample.

Unfortunately, someone spread a rumour around that this individual was my personal chef. Wow, I wish; but, no, that is not the case and never will be as you know. Unfortunately, this individual has not been able to take that same kind of role in the forum this year and is being missed but nevertheless has volunteered as much time as possible to assist us at the forum this year but certainly not to the same degree as he was able to in the past, because he is involved I think in taking some additional courses himself and is also in teaching courses as well.

Mr. Clif Evans: Besides the speakers, of course, the dinners and, of course, the forum itself, is there any planned entertainment this year at forum?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, there is a great deal of entertainment that takes place at forum. It happens throughout the forum days, mornings and afternoons. We have a stage that is set up at the food court where we have young Manitobans come forward and entertain the audience. It is just a way of breaking up the forum and creating, if you like, some atmosphere at the food court because there are, as the member knows, areas where folks can sit around and enjoy some of the flavour of Manitoba. It is all rural Manitoba talent.

We try to feature rural Manitoba in the entertainment that is put on. It is an open stage; it is free; there is no admission to it. Much of the entertainment features local youth from the rural part of our province, but I think maybe the member is referring to the advertisement that is out regarding Travis Tritt. That is a function that is taking place in conjunction with the forum Thursday evening, but it is done as an independently sponsored event, and it is simply happening at the same time Rural Forum is. But as the member will note from the advertisements, this is done by an independent agency and sponsored independently as well.

Mr. Clif Evans: No, I did not see the advertisement. I was of course, being a part of a forum, for as much as I was able to last year, watch some of the entertainment and that, and of course the food court and whatnot. I would probably like to ask a few more questions about Rural Forum, but I think I would like to leave that for tomorrow just to continue.

If he could, while we have a few minutes, just enlighten me about this Canada-Ukrainian business plan and what has been involved. I know the minister has been meeting and negotiating and has been to Ukraine and has another meeting prior to the formal meeting being held here in Winnipeg. Can he enlighten us on that initiative?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, I would be happy to. Mr. Chairman, I was asked by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of our province to undertake the lead role for the Canada-Ukraine Business Initiative for the Province of Manitoba. Three provinces in Canada have joined forces in what is called the Canada-Ukraine Business Initiative. This is an event that is sponsored through the private sector and the Government of Canada through Western Diversification. In addition, the partnership of the provinces has been sought in this initiative. What is being done is we are trying to forge relationships between business people in Canada, in the three prairie provinces, and business people in Ukraine.

As an emerging free trade economy, Ukraine has a tremendously long way to go in terms of actually becoming an equal partner in a free trade world. Therefore, because of the population of Canada and the significant number of people who are of Ukrainian origin in Canada, this initiative was started by Alberta in the private sector. Saskatchewan and Manitoba subsequently joined. There are three sectors that we are involved in. One is the energy, oil and gas sector which is being co-ordinated by Alberta; then there is the agriculture sector which is being co-ordinated by Saskatchewan; and the construction sector which we were asked to co-ordinate and direct.

It is a public-private partnership, if you like, basically being spearheaded by the private sector. Our chair of our sector is Mr. Jim Orzechowski, who is the principal partner of Smith Carter. We have responsibility to not only co-ordinate but to also establish linkages between the construction sector in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba and the construction sector in Ukraine.

I would like to explain a little bit about this sector because it is a very huge sector, but it is a very new sector. We do not have a venue like Alberta and Saskatchewan do where they have the Farm Progress Show and The Energy Show in Alberta. We have to create a venue in Manitoba, and that is why I referenced the symposium in June. I understand we are out of time, so I can certainly expand on that a little more tomorrow when we meet again.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The hour being six o'clock, the committee rise.