Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I seek leave of the House to adjust the Estimates sequence in the Chamber as follows: For Monday only, Agriculture to be set aside to be replaced by Seniors Directorate and Environment. On Tuesday, the sequence tabled on March 27 will be followed with Agriculture being considered.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to adjust the Estimates sequence in the Chamber for Monday only?

Some Honourable Members: Leave.

Madam Speaker: Leave. Therefore Agriculture will be set aside and replaced by the Seniors Directorate and Environment. On Tuesday, Agriculture will continue to be considered.

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Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, on April 8, the Supplementary Information for Estimates review for the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund was tabled in this House. For the information of honourable members, there are two typographical errors on page 9. The resolution and appropriation numbers should have read 26.2 and two, respectively.

Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as to--are we into government orders now?

Yes, would you be so kind as to call bills today in the following order subject to revision, should it be necessary: Bills 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17.

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I have a few notes to provide to the House, a few comments to provide to the House before I move that the bill be read a second time and be referred.

The Arbitration Act essentially--

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I think you have to move it first. Go back to orientation.

Mr. Toews: Got to move it first? All right. Thank you. I appreciate the comments by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). His undoubtedly superior knowledge and skills in House matters--

An Honourable Member: . . . not want to go that far, Victor.

Mr. Toews: Not that far? Well, anyway, I thank him.

I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 2, The Arbitration and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur l'arbitrage et modifications corrélatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, this act will repeal and replace the existing Arbitration Act. This change will significantly modernize the law governing private, domestic arbitrations in Manitoba. The Arbitration Act currently in force in Manitoba is based on a model adopted by the United Kingdom in 1889, a model which was developed in an era when private arbitral tribunals were less trusted to resolve disputes or dispense justice.

The new act is based on the uniform Arbitration Act prepared by the Uniform Law Conference of Canada in 1990. Among the many reforms made by the uniform act, the six most significant are the following changes:

The first change is that the new act places greater recognition on the will of the parties. Few subject matters cannot be made the subject of an arbitration. The rules of procedure for arbitrations may be established as the parties see fit. The act also strengthens arbitration agreements by requiring courts to hold parties who enter into valid arbitration agreements to those agreements.

The second change is that the new act provides an appreciable level of detail with respect to the rules of procedure. While the parties are free to change those rules at any time and in any manner they see fit, parties to less complicated relationships often agree to submit a matter to arbitration without putting their minds to the rules of procedure that will be followed. These rules, which are intended to be fair to all parties, provide a detailed procedural framework.

The third change is that once an arbitration has begun, the process will not be slowed unnecessarily. This includes reducing the amount of possible gamesmanship that can be used to stall or defeat the arbitration. To this end, the primary changes and objections to the jurisdiction of the arbitrator must be made in a timely fashion. Parties cannot sit on an objection for the sole purpose of raising it at a time that would be inconvenient to other parties.

The fourth change is that the arbitrator's duties are more clearly spelled out. The arbitrator must be independent of the parties and must act impartially. This is more a codification of the existing common law rules than it is a change, but it is intended to spell the duty clearly to arbitrators.

The fifth change is that the arbitrator's powers have been expanded to allow orders for specific performance, injunctions and other equitable remedies. The powers have also been expanded to allow interim orders to be made for the detention, preservation or inspection of property. The arbitrator has also been given the power to rule on his or her own jurisdiction.

The sixth change is that on the application of one of the parties, the court is required to enforce an award which has not been appealed. Awards are enforceable, not only for arbitrations conducted in Manitoba, but for arbitrations conducted in other Canadian jurisdictions. Conversely, awards made in Manitoba will be readily enforceable in courts of other Canadian jurisdictions which have reformed their Arbitration Acts.

One of the underlying intentions of The Uniform Act has been to harmonize arbitration law across Canada. So far, The Uniform Act has been adopted in Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick. Two other provinces, British Columbia and Quebec, revised their Arbitration Act in 1986 prior to the preparation of The Uniform Act. Those acts largely foresaw the changes that have been made under The Uniform Act.

The act proposed for Manitoba also takes into account minor changes in style which have been made in Alberta. For the most part, those are substantially insignificant. However, those changes include three relatively minor changes of substance.

First, under The Uniform Act, where a court action is taken for the removal of an arbitrator, the arbitrator is entitled to be heard by the court only where two grounds are alleged for his or her removal for undue delay of the arbitration or for the commission of a corrupt or fraudulent act. With the changes, where court action is taken for the removal of an arbitrator, the arbitrator is entitled to be heard in all cases.

Next, under The Uniform Act, the arbitrator is empowered to administer an oath, declaration or affirmation, but the arbitrator is not compelled to require witnesses to testify under oath or arbitration. With the changes, the arbitrator is similarly empowered to administer an oath, declaration or affirmation but is also compelled to require the witness to testify under oath or affirmation.

Finally, under The Uniform Act, all appeals and applications to set aside awards must be brought to court within 30 days of the award, except in cases of corruption or fraud, where no limitation period is given. With the changes, a specific limitation period is given for cases of fraud or corruption. It is the latter of 30 days after the award has been made or 30 days after the wrongdoing is discovered or ought to have been discovered.

With the changes that will be brought by this act, it is expected that arbitration will become a more attractive option for dispute resolution in Manitoba. Thank you.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that Bill 4, The Steam and Pressure Plants Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur les appareils sous pression et à vapeur), be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce Bill 4 which proposes to amend The Steam and Pressure Plants Act. The amendment I am proposing today provides that where a pressure vessel is subject to inspection under the federal Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, it will not also be subject to inspection requirements under the province's Steam and Pressure Plants Act.

In 1992, the federal government amended federal regulations under the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act to require the inspection of mobile anhydrous ammonia tanks used to transport liquid fertilizer, as well as other mobile tanks. The changes were effective July 1, 1995. The new federal tests and inspections for highway tanks are to be conducted on a two-year basis by certified and designated testing facilities.

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The Department of Labour is currently also required to inspect these tanks under the Steam and Pressure Plants Act on a two-year basis. If the proposed amendment is not proceeded with, duplicate inspections will be conducted under both the Manitoba and federal requirements. Eliminating the provincial requirement to inspect anhydrous ammonia tanks will allow the department to devote its resources to more effective purposes.

The federal initiative generally affects the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba with respect to anhydrous ammonia tank inspections. The federal inspection requirements are applicable now in all three jurisdictions. Alberta has discontinued its follow-up program under the pressure vessel legislation. In Saskatchewan, they were inspected under another scheme, however, the new arrangements will be similar in all three provinces.

It should be noted that the Department of Environment will continue to monitor the tanks under Manitoba Transportation of Dangerous Goods legislation to ensure that the federal inspection requirements are complied with. The Department of Labour will continue to inspect these tanks to ensure that they are constructed to the proper safety standards. These changes are aimed at reducing duplication without reducing safety requirements.

Madam Speaker, I commend this bill to this Assembly for approval. Thank you.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I move, seconded by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that the debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 7, The Midwifery and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi sur les sages-femmes et modifications corrélatives, be now read a second time and be referred to committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. Praznik: Again, my apologies for the state of my voice this morning. I, too, suffer from the cold or flu that is going around, and I find it a little bit difficult to speak.

Madam Speaker, this piece of legislation, The Midwifery and Consequential Amendments Act, is truly a historic piece of legislation both for our province and I think across the country. For the first time in the history of our nation--and this is not the first, but it is part of the wave of the first acts--we are recognizing in a statutory way in establishing the framework of governance for the practice of midwifery.

Midwifery has been with humankind since the earliest times, but in our recent history in medical practice, it has not been a profession that has had legal recognition and has not been as widespread in recent times as many has desired. Today we are bringing forward for second reading and consideration of this House legislation which will create in essence the governing structure for the profession of midwifery. Within this bill all of the rules, of course, are not written within it. They will be included in regulations. We are putting together the framework for the establishment of this profession.

I want to pay tribute to the previous ministers of Health, both Mr. Donald Orchard, the former member for Pembina, and the honourable member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), who served in this portfolio. Both were very supportive of the work that has gone on to develop this particular piece of legislation.

I know going back some years, as an MLA in my own constituency, I was lobbied very intensely by a number of women who felt that midwifery for low-risk births was an important part of their options and choices in delivering and caring for their newborn, and not only in recognizing that desire to have that choice available to them but also the very practical need that exists in many parts of our province. I am thinking of particularly very remote, isolated communities where it is very impractical to have a physician available all of the time to those communities. Midwifery offers another option for care and delivery in low-risk births that we certainly think were there. I would even suggest in many cases, very unofficially, the practice in those communities goes on today as a matter of necessity. This provides, of course, the vehicle to establish the profession, to govern and regulate it and include within that the formalized training that I think is very important, that goes hand in hand with the development of the practice of midwifery in our province.

Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, my predecessors both supported and began a process of very extensive consultations by establishing a Midwifery Implementation Council with urban, rural and other communities including aboriginal citizens and health care providers, including doctors, nurses and midwives, et cetera, being involved in that process. The previous consultations included a process in 1987 conducted by the then Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women under a previous administration. I acknowledge their efforts in having the council under their tutelage look at this particular issue and, as well, reports from the Health Advising Network; the College of Physicians and Surgeons, I believe, in 1991; the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses in 1991; and the Manitoba Working Group on Midwifery in 1993, all of which examined this issue and recommended that regulated midwifery be introduced into our provincial health care system.

The Midwifery Implementation Council appointed by the then Minister of Health was chaired by family practitioner Dr. Carol Scurfield. It has obstetrician, community and nurse midwives, a lawyer, educators, nurses, health care consumers and aboriginal and rural citizen representatives. The council offered valuable advice and expertise, and the recommendations have been incorporated into this legislation. In creating the structure for midwifery as a regulated profession it was emphasized that public safety was first and foremost and the proposed college of midwives were required to enforce high standards of care, accountability and continuing professional education.

This initiative of the Ministry of Health fits certainly with the principles of a reformed health care system. It enhances public education and patient empowerment providing greater options. It also develops and strengthens appropriate community-oriented and alternative services for the women of our province. It is also congruent; it focuses on provincial priorities for women, children and aboriginal people. This initiative also fits with the focus on the development of primary care models within an interdisciplinary practice model.

Madam Speaker, we also hope that we are able to meet the needs of care providers and communities with high needs, particularly as I have mentioned, aboriginal, northern and isolated communities. Midwifery, through this legislation, we hope to blend what is a traditional and very long-standing practice in the life of the world with the regulatory mechanisms of our modern medical community. I hope, in the course of our discussions on this particular bill, when we move to committee, that it will have the support of all parties within this Assembly, and again the structure of this particular legislation is to establish the framework of governance, establish the college of midwives to get on with the ongoing work of establishing and regulating, governing this profession.

It has taken some time to get to the floor of this House. There has been a great deal of work, as I said, going back to 1987 with the then Manitoba Council on the Status of Women, beginning a process of discussion and consultation and recommendation to this point of introducing the bill for second reading today, a great deal of work. I would like to thank all of those involved in it, and I hope through this step over the next while we will be able to develop the practice in Manitoba, so that it again can provide another option of care for many of the women in our province who are pregnant and require such service and care.

Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I wanted to put a few words on the record with respect to this particular piece of legislation.

Madam Speaker, midwifery as an issue was really first brought to my attention back in 1988 through a couple of constituents actually at the door in the canvassing that I had done, and it is an issue which through time has grown, and grown considerably. I think that those individuals that have been persistent at lobbying for the change in this area should be thanked, because I know it has been a long haul.

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I can recall the 1990 election, standing in the front Seven Oaks Hospital. At that time Sharon Carstairs, and I believe it was Dr. Gulzar Cheema were present, and we talked about the benefits of midwifery. Madam Speaker, we also acknowledged that would it not be nice if we designated the Seven Oaks Hospital as some sort of a training facility for midwifery.

I believe that it is, Madam Speaker, a very legitimate option that has to be made available, that the government has been somewhat slow in terms of bringing in the legislation that is required. We are going to be following very closely in terms of the regulation. I myself will be sending a copy of the legislation with possibly the minister's comments in order to attempt to receive some feedback. We trust that the minister will be open-minded in terms of trying to be able to accommodate potential amendments to this particular legislation.

The concept of midwifery is long overdue in terms of the requirements to make it happen, Madam Speaker, and to that end we in the Liberal Party are quite glad to see that we have legislation today. Over the next while, there will be a number of people that will in fact be reviewing it to see if in fact there are ways in which the legislation can be enhanced.

I just wanted to acknowledge, Madam Speaker, right up front that this is something which our party has persistently fought for, for a number of years. In fact, in the 1990 election campaign I can recall how, as I indicated, our former Leader, Sharon Carstairs, took this as an issue on behalf of our party and tried to bring it to the public's attention in a very broad way. That was done primarily because of the type of overwhelming support that she had received virtually throughout the province in people, not only those that want to practise midwifery, but most importantly the families, in particular the women, that were wanting to have this service.

It has been a long time in coming. We welcome it. I am sure that there will be good debate and discussion at committee and, at that point in time, in fact we might even be coming up with some suggestions or, at the very least, ensuring that some individuals that we are aware of that have been lobbying us have been made aware of it possibly going to committee sometime in the near future. Thank you.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Madam Speaker: Second Reading. Is there leave to change the sequence? [agreed]. So it is Bill 12.

Motion presented.

Mr. Derkach: The Manitoba Government plans to enter into a unique partnership arrangement with other private and public sector interests to finance the construction and the operation of a regional water supply system for the rural municipalities of Cartier, St. Francois Xavier, Headingley and Portage la Prairie.

In order to proceed, however, Madam Speaker, changes are required to The Manitoba Water Services Board Amendment Act. The act must be amended primarily as a housekeeping issue to allow the board to seek new opportunities that were not available to them when The Manitoba Water Services Board and its ensuing act were created back in 1972.

The Manitoba Water Services Board is now wishing to seek private partners for the development of the Cartier water supply system. Amending the act will enable the board to proceed. Public-private partnerships of this nature are positive on a number of fronts. First, they offer the province an innovative way to finance, build and operate infrastructure facilities. Due to the economies of scale within such a partnership arrangement, greater efficiencies can be achieved with a significant reduction in cost.

In the case of the Cartier regional water supply system, the four participating municipalities have been susceptible to droughts in the past, leaving a large number of residents without a dependable water supply to meet their residential, commercial and their livestock needs, Madam Speaker. This project will provide residents with a dependable water supply while ensuring the continued economic development for the area. This approach is not a new one, it has been used before, and a similar project was undertaken with the Charleswood Bridge in south Winnipeg.

The partnership approach is consistent with the mandate of the Department of Rural Development to work with communities and organizations, and it offers an innovative way to develop large capital projects. I believe that it is an approach we will see being used more and more into the future. Partnering offers a means towards achieving a common goal in a very efficient and cost-effective manner. So therefore I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to adjust the sequence once again? Leave. [agreed]

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 14, The Pension Benefits Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur les prestations de pension), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am pleased, Madam Speaker, to introduce Bill 14, which proposes to amend The Pension Benefits Act. The main purpose of the amendments being proposed is to strengthen the enforcement and penalty provisions of The Pension Benefits Act such that the pension benefits of working Manitobans can be protected to the maximum extent possible. As well, several amendments will serve to clarify for the benefit of pension plan sponsors, administrators and participants a number of administrative issues.

The first amendment proposed will require pension plan administrators to act prudently in their administration of the plan or investment of pension funds. Manitoba and Alberta are the last remaining Canadian jurisdictions to not have a statutory requirement that administrators act prudently in performing their responsibilities. Adoption of such a requirement will clarify the legal responsibility that plan administrators and their agents undertake with respect to pension plans and thereby improve legislative compliance.

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In an effort to further strengthen the enforcement provisions of the act, it is proposed that additional parties be required to notify the superintendent of pensions of a failure of the employer to remit contributions to the pension plan. Currently under the act, a trustee of a pension plan, or the person charged with the investment of the funds of a plan, must notify the superintendent of pensions where the employer fails to make a required payment of the plan. In many cases, these persons are not the persons who receive the funds from the employer. There are other parties involved in the administration of plans, who would have more timely knowledge of the failure to remit.

To signal the government's commitment to enforcement, it is being proposed that the penalties for a breach of the act be increased tenfold. Thus the maximum fine would rise from $10,000 to $100,000, while the minimum penalty would increase from $200 to $2,000. Moreover, as the objective of the government's enforcement efforts is to protect the accrued pension benefits of working Manitobans, it is being proposed that the courts be enable to order any person convicted of an offence under the act to provide restitution to the pension plan for losses suffered by the pension plan in respect of the offence. These provisions will ensure that The Pension Benefits Act clearly establishes the legal responsibilities of those administering pension plans of working Manitobans and provides effective and efficient enforcement.

Madam Speaker, among the more significant technical and administrative amendments being proposed is that which would allow pension plans to provide for the cashing out of small pension amounts upon termination, death or retirement. This will assist pension plan administrators, former plan members and financial institutions to overcome an unnecessary administrative hurdle. More specifically, it has been found that financial institutions are no longer selling retirement income products to retirees with a small amount of accumulated pension benefit credits. At the same time, The Pension Benefits Act, in many cases, does not allow these funds to be cashed out and given to a retiree as a lump sum. This amendment will allow for the cashing out of small pension amounts.

In an effort to improve the protection of spousal pension rights, it is proposed that the act be amended to clarify that. Where a spouse resumes cohabitation with a plan member, the spouse is entitled to the spousal preretirement death benefit provided for under the act. Provisions respecting preretirement death benefits provide that a spouse of a pension plan member is entitled to a pension benefit when the member dies prior to retirement. The act currently provides that the benefit is not available to an ex-spouse who received or is entitled to receive a division of pension benefits as a result of a marriage breakdown. The restriction assumes that spouses who have separated and divided their pensions would never subsequently reconcile or remarry. However, such cases do occur and these spouses are being denied the benefit, even though they are the legal spouse at the time of death.

The final amendment I will highlight is the proposal to amend the section which was originally added to the act in 1992 and is intended to assist pension plan members and plan sponsors of new established plans, clarify the ownership of prospective surplus pension assets. A provision was not intended to override any existing legal rights and entitlements.

It has come to the Pension Commission's attention that the present wording is creating considerable confusion and may, in some cases, be dissuading potential planned sponsors from continuing the operation of plans when they take over a firm. The proposed amendment will make it clear that the provision applies where a new plan is being established.

Taken together, these proposals are a positive step forward in our efforts to create an environment, which not only promotes the expansion and the establishment of employer-sponsored pension plans but also ensures the benefits of members are offered adequate protection. Thank you.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Might I suggest for the convenience of honourable ministers, at this point, that we move next to Bill 17 and then Bill 16 and then Bills 8, 9 and 13.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to change the sequence of the reading of second bills? [agreed]

Motion presented.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am pleased to introduce Bill 17 which proposes to amend The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Act. The amendment I am proposing today provides the Minister of Labour with the authority to issue special exemptions from the closure requirements of the act without requiring the authorization of the Lieutenant Governor in Council.

Currently, under The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Act, the authorization of the Lieutenant Governor in Council is required for the minister to issue an exemption from the restrictions on retail business openings under the act where a particular establishment wishes to hold a special event on a Sunday or holiday.

As well, an order of the Lieutenant Governor in Council is required to make such an exemption more general in its application. As this is a costly, inefficient and time-consuming way of proceeding, it is proposed the act be amended to provide that (a) the exemptions be issued by the minister without the requirement of Lieutenant Governor in Council authorization, and (b) the orders making an exemption general in effect be issued by the minister.

It is also proposed that the regulation-making powers under the act be amended to allow for the establishment of administrative fees to be charged for the issuance of these permits. These changes are aimed at providing a more timely and efficient way for establishments to obtain these permits.

Madam Speaker, I commend this bill to the Assembly for approval.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I move, seconded by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 16, The Council on Post-Secondary Education Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur le Conseil de l'enseignement postsecondaire, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mrs. McIntosh: The Council on Post-Secondary Education Act, which was passed last session and will be proclaimed very shortly, was an act that will be bringing all the elements of the post-secondary system under one governance structure. The proposed amendment will bring Manitoba's six independent colleges under the Council on Post-Secondary Education. These independent colleges at the present time are the Canadian Mennonite Bible College, the William and Catherine Booth Bible College, Concord College, Menno Simons College, Providence College and Steinbach Bible College.

The independent colleges are an integral part of Manitoba's post-secondary system and have been for much of this century. The first independent college, Providence College, was established in 1925. The last was established in 1982, which was the William and Catherine Booth Bible College. The fact that these institutions were left out of the Council on Post-Secondary Education Act was unfortunate and not what we desired. We had an amendment, you may recall, during the hearings that would have included them, but it was ruled out of scope, and we were unable to achieve the unanimous consent to consider them, as the opposition did not support the amendment.

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The government very much wants to see these colleges fall under the Council on Post-Secondary Education, and they too wish to see that happen. Other governments, the governments of Alberta, Ontario, et cetera, do incorporate their independent colleges under public legislation.

We on this side of the House believe that amending The Council on Post-Secondary Education Act to include independent colleges is the most appropriate method of ensuring that these institutions continue to play an important role in Manitoba's post-secondary system and that the students benefit from the improvements which we hope to see in our post-secondary system.

The need to incorporate the independent colleges under The Council on Post-Secondary Education Act comes from the initial desire as expressed in the Roblin report to ensure that Manitoba's post-secondary system is fully co-ordinated and articulated. The report of the University Education Review Commission Roblin report was released in December 1993. That report recommended, and I quote: The Council on Post-Secondary Education be created having a broad and proactive mandate to mediate government policy with post-secondary institutions, co-ordinate system-wide planning and budgeting, as well as having responsibility for distance education, accountability reporting, accreditation, system data development, and community interconnecting relationships. That is on page 91, Madam Speaker, of the Roblin report.

The independent colleges met with this minister in December of '96 and indicated that they would like to fall under the jurisdiction of the Council on Post-Secondary Education. These colleges have independently already affiliated themselves with existing institutions. To give a few examples, Madam Speaker, the Canadian Mennonite Bible College is affiliated already with the University of Manitoba. Both Concord College and Menno Simons have close working and teaching relationships with the University of Winnipeg.

All independent colleges have articulation agreements with the various universities to ensure transferability of programs between institutions. Furthermore, the independent colleges are recognized by Manitoba institutions and by institutions throughout Canada and the U.S.A. For example, Providence College graduates are accepted at graduate-level courses in various universities outside of Manitoba. Given the history of Manitoba independent colleges and the relationships that they have formed with the other post-secondary institutions in Manitoba, we in government believe that it is essential that the independent colleges be brought under the Council on Post-Secondary Education.

We have situations, Madam Speaker, where not only is the same course being taught at the University of Manitoba and, say, Providence College, but the same professor is teaching the course in both institutions. So I would urge the members opposite to reconsider the position they took last year and allow what is happening naturally to be able to happen officially as well and not let ideology against people who are not fully publicly in the public realm stand against the rightness of this decision.

The amendment allows the independent colleges to receive their funding through the council. Currently, the colleges are funded through the Training and Advanced Education division of the Department of Education and Training. In 1996-97, government provided the six independent colleges with the total split amongst them of $480,200. This money was divided amongst the colleges based on enrollment. Through this amendment, the funding will be routed through the Council on Post-Secondary Education and will no longer be given directly from the government. Any changes to the level of funding will be recommended to the government by the council. Further, the council will be able to recognize and provide advice and leadership to the independent colleges regarding their co-ordination with the rest of the post-secondary system.

It is essential for the benefit of students, Madam Speaker, that Manitoba have a co-ordinate, articulated post-secondary system. This will help ensure that Manitoba's post-secondary opportunities are as open, as wide and available, as possible. Co-ordination means that all post-secondary institutions will have a unique and specific role to play in post-secondary education. If Brandon University offers the best program in one area, then the post-secondary system should recognize that and ensure that they do not start up programs that will duplicate what is being done effectively in Brandon. A co-ordinated system is a system that ensures that a specific institution's resources are directed at their areas of expertise, that centres of excellence are developed and used by all post-secondary institutions.

An articulated system fits in directly with a co-ordinated system. If the institutions are to develop centres of excellence and expertise in specific areas, it then follows its students in Manitoba should be able to pursue studies in a particular field without necessarily being tied to one institution. A student should be able to take the programs and courses that he or she needs to ensure that the student gets the best possible training. That students should be able to take courses from the University of Manitoba, from the William and Catherine Booth Bible College, the University of Winnipeg, through learning technologies and other methods, a course from Brandon, if that arrangement provides the best training in the students' field of study, they should not be restricted to one institution.

Through their affiliations and agreements with other post-secondary institutions, the independent colleges have demonstrated their desire to play an active role in Manitoba's post-secondary system. Naturally, where government provides funding, there must be accountability structures in place. Through the amendment, the independent colleges would have to provide the annual budget of the college, an annual report, or any other information that the council may require. This information will help the council by providing the ability to compare the independent colleges to other elements of the post-secondary system. Further, the council will be able to provide Manitobans with a more complete picture of the status of post-secondary education in Manitoba. With this information taxpayers will be able to get a clearer idea of how their tax dollars are being spent.

The Council on Post-Secondary Education is about doing things differently. We must ensure the taxpayers are getting value for the money they provide. If we have to change the way we do things, if we have to change the things we do, how we structure universities and colleges, how we see the nontraditional parts of the post-secondary system, then I believe we have a responsibility to do that.

The Council on Post-Secondary Education has a mandate to do just that, provide leadership to the post-secondary system to help them do things differently. Independent colleges are an important part of ensuring that the council can do its work. As a resource, the council can include the independent colleges in their considerations when looking at issues of co-ordination.

Who should be the locus of expertise in areas of conflict resolution? Why should one of the traditional institutions create a new program in conflict resolution when Menno Simons Bible College has a nationally recognized expertise in providing training in this field?

As institutions, the independent colleges can look to articulation agreements with the other major institutions instead of dedicating their resources to doing what the more traditional institutions have already been doing well for many years. The potential is great. However, we must ensure that all parts of the post-secondary system are working together. It is a mistake to leave any part of the system out. Universities, community colleges, independent colleges must all be working together to help improve the high quality of post-secondary education in Manitoba.

The Department of Education and Training must not only be concerned with issues related to the management of our post-secondary system. The department is also concerned about the economic impact of post-secondary education on the province. The framework for economic growth indicates that a competitive advantage today is increasingly dependent on ideas and skills rather than traditional input costs. Through insuring that all aspects of the post-secondary system are co-ordinated, the department is seeking to improve the creation and dissemination of knowledge.

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It is often said that information is power, knowledge is power, possunt quia sciut [phonetic]. This is true now more than it has ever been. The framework for economic growth indicates that in the new economy knowledge workers are the single most important factor of production.

It is essential that the province, in co-operation with post-secondary institutions, help ensure that all avenues of post-secondary education are open to Manitobans.

Madam Speaker, Statistics Canada in its 1996 education quarterly report measures Canada's spending on all levels of education against that of the G-7 nations. The report indicates that Canada spends more in terms of the percentage of GDP per capita than any of the other G-7 nations. However, the same report indicates that of the G-7 nations Canada has the highest unemployment rate among high school graduates and the second highest unemployment rate among university graduates. Canada spends more and achieves less than the other countries.

So it seems we do not need to spend more on education. Rather we need to change the way we educate ourselves. Our education system has to be become more relevant, more flexible, with increased co-ordination, better articulation and co-operation. Our post-secondary system can produce the kinds of graduates that industry wants and raise our standing internationally so that the Canadian level will be respected on the world stage. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Motion presented.

Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, the amendments that we are proposing for The Real Property Act here are matters of a housekeeping nature. I would like to take this opportunity to put a few remarks on the record by way of explanation of what we are doing.

The first section of this amendment or bill that we are doing refers to the standard charge mortgage terms on mortgages that are registered in the Land Titles Office. A number of years ago, the Manitoba Legislature, in its wisdom, sought to introduce some plain language legislation with regard to real property mortgages in order to make them more user friendly for the Manitoba public.

So we moved from documents, mortgage documents, which were anywhere up to eight to 10 pages in length, containing many, many very technical terms which met the needs of the lenders and the consuming public to a one-page document. On the one-page document, which was designed by our Land Titles Office, were contained all the salient points of what the nature of the relationship was between the borrower and the lender on a real property mortgage. It contained the name of the borrower, the name of the lender, a description of the real property involved, the interest rates, the term of the loan and a brief statement as to the ownership and dower or inheritance rights that were contained. This was the basic nature of the document.

Now, in order to protect lenders, what we did in the Land Titles Office was then add "by reference" on the simplified mortgage form, on the face of it, a reference to another document which was filed in the Land Titles Office as a pro forma which was called the standard charge terms. Any lender could file a standard charge term document and then all the subsequent registrations would refer by virtue of reference of number to the registration number of the standard charge term and name of the document.

The regulations at that time indicated that the standard charge terms on those mortgages, there should be a reference as to the name of the standard charge terms and a heading to help to identify it. What has occurred by way of practice, subsequent thereto, is only a reference by way of number, so therefore we are relieving the lender of the obligation of the wider identification under the standard charge term of identifying that document and only referring to it by number.

Another amendment that we are making under The Real Property Act again goes to the matter of fees that are payable by a mortgager or borrower to register the documentation in Land Titles Office. Up until a number of years ago one used to pay on a sliding scale based on the value of the mortgage to register the document in Land Titles Office. That was changed and there is now a standard charge for registering a mortgage, and that I believe is now approximately $60 for registering a mortgage of any value.

Now, the prior status of the law was that Land Titles did not want the borrowing public to change or amend the value of the mortgage, because when there were subsequent changes, either by way of renewal, change of borrowers, they wanted to restrict the amendment of the terms of the mortgage because it affected the fees. So now that is irrelevant because there is a standard charge for registration of the mortgage; therefore, the revenue derived by Land Titles Office is not dependent upon the face value of the mortgage. The law restricting or forbidding amendment of the value of the mortgage by way of amending agreement is no longer relevant. Therefore, what we are now proposing is to allow the borrowing public in Manitoba to amend the terms of the registered mortgages not only by changing the different terms in the mortgage but now to actually change not only the interest rates but the value of the mortgage. So this is the essence of the second change that we are making to The Real Property Act at this point in time.

The transfer tax is something that is completely different from the cost of registration of the mortgage. The whole object of these changes is, again, to make the land title system, the registry system in Manitoba something that is more user friendly, more accessible to the public and be more responsive to the needs of the borrowing public in Manitoba. We find nowadays, and I would use the hypothetical situation, that where a borrower is purchasing a home, there may be an existing mortgage in place, and they want to change the terms and conditions of the mortgage as to not only the rate and the identity of the borrower, but the outside value of the mortgage. Now somebody need not go through all the expense of discharging the existing mortgage and reapplying at a mortgage-lending institution, going through the due diligence.

I can tell this House and my colleagues here, and through you, Madam Speaker, to the good people of Manitoba, that what one does when one registers a mortgage in Manitoba, the due diligence that one must go through to satisfy a lender, that you are giving security and good security for the money you are receiving. You must file an application, and that costs money. Then you must provide, if there is a residential dwelling on the property, a survey certificate. We have seen fit in this Chamber to pass laws that now it must be an up-to-date survey certificate.

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I can comment at this point in time that for young house buyers and people who are perhaps buying homes on a shoestring budget, to have to go out and engage the services of a surveyor when there is an existing survey certificate that may well be in existence--and our former practices as land conveyancers was that we would consult the sketch, the surveyor's sketch that was on the survey certificate. If it was more than five years old, we would take an affirmation or a declaration from the purchaser that there was no material change in the outside boundaries of the home.

At that point in time that would suffice and that met the needs of the borrower. That would assure the lender that in fact the dwelling upon which they were lending the money was wholly found within the boundaries of the piece of property upon which was forming the security for this property. However, there were other problems afoot. The surveyors found that we were recycling many old survey certificates. Surveyors brought here and introduced the concept of copyright, I believe. So this Manitoba Legislature, in its ultimate wisdom, said that when a survey is done on a piece of property now, it can only be used for the particular transaction for which that individual professional was engaged, and these survey certificates cannot be recycled.

Madam Speaker, I just take this opportunity to express my personal frustration as a conveyancer, and I bring this experience to the benefit of my colleagues here, that this can add an additional $300--

An Honourable Member: Unnecessary dollars.

Mr. Radcliffe: The honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) indicates that these are unnecessary dollars. I would not perhaps be so vigorous as to qualify it in that respect, but I can say that, when you are facing first-time buyers, young people who are buying their starter home or people who are buying homes on modest means, it is a significant and additional paper cost in order to engage and to make sure that the documentation is more up to date. However, be that as it may, that is only one of the aspects that one follows through when one is remortgaging a piece of property.

Another aspect of due diligence with which one must follow when you are remortgaging a piece of property is you must obtain an up-to-date zoning memorandum from the local municipality to ensure the lender that the zoning regulations, the use to which this particular property is put, comply with the local by-laws as to land use. These must be up to date and what ones does there, of course, is send the survey certificate, to which I made former reference, to the local municipality and request an "only for payment" of course, because the municipalities only issue these things in response to a further stipend. So there is another additional cost.

Then you have to pay the lawyer which, of course, is always a very modest fee for all the work and due diligence that he does. There must a declaration as to possession, which outlines the quality of ownership. There must be a search of the property at the Land Titles Office to ensure that, in fact, the particular charges, a first charge or a second charge, whatever has been negotiated. So, Madam Speaker, you can see from these myriad steps--and this is only a very quick précis of the care and attention that a good solicitor will do when acting on behalf of a borrower and in many cases a lender as well--that there is significant cost involved with mortgaging a piece of property.

An Honourable Member: Yes, indeed, it is the lawyers that add to that cost.

Mr. Radcliffe: Oh, now, the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) who I note seconded this bill is casting about some vague imprecations in this Chamber about the authenticity and the validity of our legal counsel. I must say that legal counsels are well meaning and hard working and underpaid. So it is for these reasons that we want to try and reduce the cost to the borrowing public that these amendments have been introduced and to streamline the operation of mortgaging and the registration of documents in our Land Titles Office.

I might add, as one final comment, that our Land Titles Office has now become a special operating agency. This has allowed the officials and the employees of the Land Titles Offices in Manitoba to seize the initiative to adopt new and creative forms of doing business in Manitoba to give further service to the people of Manitoba.

This bill is only one example of the good thought, the good work that is emanating from our Land Title Offices in Manitoba. So I would commend this bill to your attention and the attention of my worthy colleagues here, and that would conclude my remarks on this particular bill. I thank you, Madam Speaker, very much for this opportunity to put these few, humble remarks on the record.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Motion presented.

Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, Bill 9 is intended to give the Public Utilities Board the power to forebear or to refrain from regulating rates for services which are now provided in a competitive market. As everyone I am sure in this Chamber knows, our Public Utilities Board in Manitoba is an independent body, separate from government, which regulates such activities as the transmission and supply of natural gas. It regulates MPI rates and hydro rates.

Regulatory forbearance is becoming increasingly common in Canada, and a prime example at the federal level affecting Manitoba is the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission. The CRTC has been allowed by the Parliament of Canada to forbear from regulating under the 1993 legislation and has exercised this power with respect to such services as long distance tolls and cellular services. These are obviously areas of commercial exchange now, Madam Speaker, which are in the competitive domain and need no longer be regulated to serve the public interest.

When there is a monopolistic situation where there is only one single supplier of a service or a commodity, then the different Legislatures and regulatory bodies in our country have deemed it appropriate that that service or that commodity be regulated by government, by an extension of government, in order that the public interest be best served, that there be no price gouging, that there be no undue or oppressive economic pressure imposed upon the people of our country and upon people who do not have the means to respond to compete or defeat the issues of, the interests of, the one particular supplier.

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Our Public Utilities Board has exercised forbearance in the past, but there is some question as to whether the board's jurisdiction specifically provides for such action. So in order to perhaps enhance the certitude of the Public Utilities Board, this bill is being introduced. Neither The Public Utilities Board Act nor The Crown Corporations Act differentiate between a public utility service offered in a competitive environment and those in a monopoly environment, and what we have seen recently, by way of example--I would use, perhaps, the natural gas supply conveyed by the TransCanada Pipeline to Manitoba from the oil and gas fields of Alberta. The local purveyor is Centra Gas in Manitoba, or one purveyor at least, and the rates that we all pay have two major components. There is the cost of the transmission through the pipeline and, of course, there is only one owner of those pipelines across western Canada. Then there is the purchase of the commodity and the supply of the actual commodity itself, the substance itself, which is the natural gas.

Madam Speaker, a number of years ago, the federal government opened up competition, I believe in 1991, opened up the opportunity for individuals, be they corporations or natural individuals, to purchase natural gas in block lots and resell it, presumably and hopefully at a profit, to the consuming public. However, the arrangement that was made with the pipeline owner was that this fuel supply was transmitted down the pipeline to the end user at the rates charged by the pipeline. So the cost of conveyance is one major significant cost of what we pay to heat our homes and run our stoves, et cetera, in Manitoba. Then the other significant cost is the acquisition of the commodity itself. So there are now a number of brokers, and we read in the paper daily the activities of the different brokers where they interact with members of the public. What one can do is go to one of these brokers who has bought a job lot of--and I think they are gigabytes or some such quantity like that--natural gas, and Centra Gas will bill the particular consumer who is buying gas from a competitor of Centra Gas, they will collect the money, and then remit those funds to the actual owner of the commodity.

Now, Madam Speaker, the situation where there is a monopoly, which was the former situation, only with respect to perhaps say, for example, regulating compulsory automobile insurance in Manitoba is clearly a monopoly situation. These are services offered by our Manitoba Public Insurance. However, as I have just explained, in today's environment there are more and more public utility services being opened up to the public.

Now I note, Madam Speaker, that natural gas has been deregulated at the supply end, at the well-head end, by agreement in 1985. I stand corrected. I thought it was 1991, but it is 1985 between the federal government, the Province of Saskatchewan, the Province of British Columbia and the Province of Alberta. At the retail end, our consumers may buy natural gas from the utility or from a broker. That is our choice now, and so there is true competition in that element of what used to be a monopoly situation.

Some people believe that utilities should have been a regulated monopoly environment only in the pipeline services, and the supply function should operate in an unregulated competitive environment. Electricity, Madam Speaker, the deregulation of electricity in Manitoba Hydro is developing more slowly in North America, and I am advised by planners that say that similar developments may take place. Now, regulation forbearance would only occur, and this bill that we are presenting for the scrutiny of members of this House in final promulgation would only forebear after discussion at public hearings and after a decision of the Public Utilities Board. The board's decisions, as now, can be appealed to the Court of Appeal on errors of jurisdiction or errors of law. The Public Utilities Board also in this bill reserves the right to impose conditions, that they are going to forebear or refrain from regulating in a particular environment. The Public Utilities Board may, in its wisdom, as an independent administrative juridical body, impose conditions upon the supply of service or the functioning in the particular environment. So we are not being abandoned or cut off, and the Public Utilities Board's wisdom and authority will still pervade this area.

This bill also contains a number of housekeeping amendments, and among them the payment for adviser's costs at the Public Utilities Board's hearings, and removal of references to The Natural Gas Supply Act which is to be repealed. Madam Speaker, I commend to the attention of my honourable colleagues in this House the issue of the fact that at the Public Utilities Board hearing there is often significant and considerable expertise in the way of testimony presented by way of actuarial evidence, by way of again more than adequate representation and advocacy from our bar, willing advocates in the province of Manitoba.

So, Madam Speaker, these hearings are very expensive, and the legal fees, the counsel fees, the testimony can amount to hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. [interjection] I do not want to deny my honourable colleagues opposite from one syllable of wisdom that I may humbly be able to--so I commend this bill to the attention of worthy members in this Legislature, because this is an attempt again on behalf of the Filmon government to make the presentation of service more user friendly, more accessible to the good people of Manitoba, in order that gas rates might be diminished if, in fact, there might be forbearance exercised at the Public Utilities Board, and some of these horrendous costs that are incurred might be avoided.

So this is something that even the honourable Leader of the Opposition might have to pay less on his gas bill, so I would commend this bill to his attention and, Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for the opportunity to put these few humble remarks on the record today.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Motion presented.

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Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I have a few very small remarks, because I see by the clock that, under this session, we are almost running out of time, so I will abridge my remarks to fit the remaining time in an attempt to edify my honourable colleagues opposite, because I feel that we have a mandate on government side to bring light and edification to all members in this Chamber.

The two main purposes of this bill are to increase the stability of the insurance industry by raising the capital requirements and minimum financial criteria for insurance companies that come to operate in Manitoba, to incorporate in Manitoba after October 1, 1997. So this is prospective legislation.

The second goal of this legislation is to amend the operative sections of The Insurance Act to enable the government to pass regulations prescribing financial standards that applicants, incorporating an insurance company in Manitoba, will have to meet. With respect to the capital requirements, the bill raises the capitalization and minimum financial criteria to $5 million for all classes of insurance.

Just as a point of information in passing, I would note that other Canadian jurisdictions are either moving to enact higher requirements or considering such action. In all aspects of our legislation on the regulatory side, my department is taking great steps and great care to see that we harmonize our regulations in Manitoba with those of our other sister jurisdictions in order that there be uniformity of the ability of the environment, ability to do business right across this grand nation of ours.

It has been shown that insurance companies with low capitalization cannot survive the rigorous risks of the property and casualty insurance market. We have seen in years gone by the Confederation Life and Canadian Indemnity, which was a corporation in which I had some personal interest at one point in time--[interjection]Yes, I did--and how it got into the automobile market in California.

Canadian Indemnity was at one point the flagship in a particular portfolio investment and, inside of two or three years, it was almost devastated, it was almost wiped out. It was terrible, and we want to ensure in this government that not only the operating public, the consuming public but the investing public are protected. Increasing the capital requirements for insurance companies will better reflect the risk and the values of insurance now being written for those for the foreseeable future.

Existing insurance companies incorporated in Manitoba will not be affected by the amendments--[interjection] Well, we do not know. They will be encouraged to increase their capitalization over time. We will be harmonious. By proceeding with this bill, Madam Speaker, this Filmon government will be able to meet its broad policy objectives of maintaining consumer confidence in the financial sector and ensuring that Manitoba consumers are served by an efficient, competitive financial services market.

Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to put these few remarks on the record.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I sense there may be a willingness to forgo the last five minutes of today's sitting and that we might call it 12:30.

Madam Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it 12:30? Agreed? [agreed]

The hour being 12:30, this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. Monday next.