Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. The Premier has repeatedly stated in this House that there is no difference between a private and public company because the CRTC will deal with rates based on costs.

The telephone system is asking for an exemption from the rate cap that is being established at the CRTC hearings in Ottawa. I would like to ask the Premier, what are the costs that are necessitating the Manitoba Telephone System in applying for the exemption from the rate cap and the ability to go beyond the rate cap in terms of rate increases for the consumers of Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I know of none.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier why he has stated in this House before that there is no difference between a private and public company when his own legal counsel at the CRTC decisions, in verbal testimony, which for the November 13 hearing has stated that there will be increased costs based on privatization, first because of the tax changes of the corporation and, secondly, due to the higher costs of borrowing money because the government will no longer be there to allow its credit rating or a situation on capital to be considered. Why has the Premier maintained one position on costs and rates in this House, and why is the legal counsel in Ottawa stating that privatization will increase costs and rates in terms of the decision being made?

Mr. Filmon: Firstly, Madam Speaker, the rating that the new corporation would have is expected to be at least equal to that that the corporation currently has, so there should be no reason for a greater cost of borrowing.

Secondly, as I have indicated, there may be many other factors that would lead to reductions in cost, and when you look at comparisons, the only valid comparisons are the comparisons between what exists today. As I have indicated, in the rating categories that cover rural and remote type networks for telephones, we have examples in Canada today at which on both of the categories for rural telephone service, there are at least four private companies that have lower rates than the Manitoba Telephone System for the same size of exchanges.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, whom are the public to believe, the Premier who has broken his election promise to the people of Manitoba, or Ross Nugent, the Legislative Counsel, in verbal testimony and which I have a transcript of, who is saying that MTS privatization will allow this corporation to face costs that it has never faced before, one, the income tax cost and, two, it will have to--and let me get the quote further: They will have rather substantial costs in the costs of borrowing money and capital.

Who is telling the people of Manitoba the truth, the Premier in this Chamber, who has maintained there is no difference in cost, or legal counsel in Ottawa that is saying that these are costs that MTS has never faced before and they will be substantial costs?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as a result of the ruling on pension funds that has been obtained by the Manitoba Telephone System, it is not anticipated that they will be facing income taxes for a considerable period of time.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this is a new question. This government Crown corporation has applied for an exemption to the cap being established by CRTC for the Stentor corporations. The Premier is saying that there is no difference in cost. Legal counsel for the telephone system at the hearings in Ottawa on November 13, well after the decision was allegedly made on pensions, has stated that they will have costs that they have never faced before, No. 1, on the income tax decisions, and No. 2, on the increased costs of dealing with the capital borrowing for a corporation that no longer has the ability to be backed up by the lower rates available to a provincial government. I would like to ask the Premier, is the testimony before the CRTC wrong, or is the Premier wrong in terms of what is coming out in terms of the facts here in the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Filmon: I have already answered both aspects of that question, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, we would suggest that the Legislative Counsel, Mr. Nugent, is telling the truth, and the Premier is not telling the people of Manitoba the truth. That is the answer to the question.

Mr. Nugent goes on to say in his testimony, his verbal testimony of November 13, in asking for this exemption to the ceiling or the cap on rates, that there will be a substantial rate shock based on privatization and cost recovery in the province of Manitoba. Can the Premier tell us what this rate shock is going to be, and why are not all Manitobans informed how much of that rate shock is due to the ideological position of this government, the extreme position of this government to privatize MTS contrary to their election promises?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have indicated before that the only valid comparison for rates between those telephone companies that are privately owned and those that are publicly owned in Canada today are those in their rate groups, and I refer him to MTS Rate Group 1, MTS Rate Group 2, both of which are rates for rural exchanges and their comparative exchanges throughout Canada. In both cases there are four other utilities, privately owned, that have lower rates in both categories today than the Manitoba Telephone System.

Mr. Doer: That, of course, contradicts what was in the budget. We still have not been able to figure out the Newfoundland rates, but I would like the Premier to be consistent with his own budget.

I would like the Premier to answer the question. His telephone system and his Legislative Counsel are asking for an exemption from the Stentor application to go beyond the ceiling. They are saying that that rate increase to go beyond the ceiling, above the cap, is due partially to privatization where there will be substantial costs incurred with the changes based on privatization.

Can the Premier delineate for the people of this province what costs and what rate increases will be based on privatization so the public of Manitoba will know? Stop this cover-up and give us the complete information that is being contained and applied in Ottawa.

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Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, some things will change for the corporation in terms of their costs, no question. When half of the debt is written off in the process that we are going through, obviously the amount of interest the corporation has to pay will go down from $90 million to approximately $40 million to $50 million. That is a significant reduction in cost.

Applications that are made to CRTC have nothing to do with the ruling. Ultimately, CRTC will rule on all applications from all telephone companies across the country.

Yesterday I referred to a press release just out from the CRTC which identifies very clearly, they take very seriously maintaining telephone rates affordable for all Canadians, and that is taken into context in every ruling that they are going to do now and on into the future.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): We now see why the government was so desperate to pass Bill 67 on November 7, because on November 13 the counsel for MTS was appearing before CRTC referencing that MTS--and this is a quote--will face costs that it has never faced before. There will be a rather substantial increase in the cost of capital borrowed. There was a need to pay income taxes. Rural residential rates in Manitoba are certainly going to change more than others, and perhaps most significantly--and this is the counsel for MTS in front of CRTC who stated that: We are concerned with rate shock. He went on to say: It is in fact one of the major problems facing the introduction and passage of the bill before our House. Residents are naturally very concerned.

I would like to ask the Premier a question here, if he will finally admit to the fact that the counsel for MTS are now approving what we have said all the way along, that there will be increases in rates because of increased costs to MTS and that will involve a potential rate shock, particularly for rural Manitobans.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): No, Madam Speaker. My previous answer stands.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Ashton: Supplementary: I would like to ask when the Premier will understand here that this is not the NDP, this is the counsel for MTS. When will he admit to the truth, that we are going to be faced with higher costs and that rural Manitobans face a potential rate shock because of the privatization of MTS?

Mr. Filmon: My previous answer applies.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. Ashton: What does it take for the Premier to understand that when the counsel for MTS himself states that residents are naturally very concerned, the change from a government-owned utility to a private one has everyone nervous? When will he start giving some straight answers, some real answers to very serious questions Manitobans have about the privatization of MTS?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the only cause for nervousness is that people might believe the New Democrats who consistently misrepresent, who consistently put false information on the table, who consistently look for ways in which they can frighten people in this province, and that is the only cause for concern in this province.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, a further question. I am reminded of the story of the emperor who had no clothes. Everybody in the province of Manitoba right now understands what we are faced with under privatization except the Premier. He is the only one left who believes his own rhetoric.

I want to ask the Premier, since this has been filed with the CRTC as of November 13, if he can indicate what the rate projections are in terms of MTS, including the privatization costs that are outlined in the CRTC. What are the increased rates we are going to be faced with as a result of privatization that are confirmed by the MTS presentation?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as I have indicated before, the projections are that the increases should be no different under private ownership than they are under public ownership.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question.

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Mr. Ashton: A supplementary question. I want to ask the Premier, when the counsel for MTS states that rural residential rates in Manitoba are certainly going to change more than the others, what is that change going to involve? How much more of an increase are rural Manitobans going to be faced with?

This, by the way again, is the counsel for MTS, not the NDP that has put this on the record.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the counsel for MTS is stating what has already been happening because, in fact, there has been that rate rebalancing ongoing by CRTC. It was part of the $2 charge that was placed on earlier this year by CRTC as part of rate rebalancing. So he is just stating what already exists.

Mr. Ashton: As a final supplementary, I just want to ask once again if the Premier will recognize, when the counsel for MTS states that MTS will face costs that it has never faced before, will the Premier finally, on the record, admit to what everybody in Manitoba knows and that there will be additional costs as a result of privatization? MTS knows it. The counsel for MTS knows it. Most of Manitoba knows it. Only the Premier does not know it.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as has been adequately pointed out in the past, MTS will also achieve savings by virtue of the interest that it will not have to pay on borrowed money. That has also been adequately pointed out in the past.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the government, through the sale of MTS, is going to be seeing a revenue increase of somewhere in the neighbourhood of $300 million to $400 million. The Health Sciences Centre needs immediate capital infusion in order to ensure that we are not going to lose accreditation at that particular facility. Given the importance of the teaching hospitals to all Manitobans, will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or the Minister of Health commit today to assign an amount of dollars that would be necessary to ensure that the accreditation is going to be there for the Health Sciences Centre so that all Manitobans will in fact be provided quality health through the Health Sciences Centre?

An Honourable Member: He is hurting a bit today.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am reminded by my colleagues to be gentle with the honourable member for Inkster in light of developments in Prince Edward Island yesterday, so I am going to try to do that.

The honourable member expresses concern about capital improvements for the health system in the province of Manitoba; those concerns are shared by myself and anyone else who is concerned about the future of health care in Manitoba. The government of Manitoba is working with proponents of capital projects to try to get those capital projects that are required on the tracks, similar to the way we have handled our requirements at the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation. We found that very significant savings were possible while at the same time building structures that would provide for the planned and projected requirements of patients in Manitoba for the future. That work will carry on, and it is my hope that at as early a date as it is possible to do so, we will be able to get other projects on the tracks, too.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Minister of Health acknowledge today that there is an immediate need for capital infusion in the Health Sciences Centre, and if that need is not met, we could look at the Health Sciences Centre losing some of its accreditation in terms of its operating rooms? Will the Minister of Health commit today to invest in capital dollars as a direct result of the selloff of MTS, as opposed to seeing that money be put into a slush fund?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I think the honourable member and his party have a responsibility to be clear about where they stand on the issue of the Manitoba Telephone System and any funds that might be derived. On the one hand, I think that there is no support coming from the honourable member for Inkster, but on the other hand--and there always is "on the other hand" with Liberals--here is how we want you to spend the money. Well, you cannot have it both ways, but nonetheless, we share his concern about Health Sciences Centre. Indeed, as a result of concerns raised by the Canadian council on health services accreditation, work is being done on the electrical system upgrading there. Air conditioner replacement is underway. There is equipment inventory management and O.R. slate adjustments going on. There is expansion of storage areas, and so on. Those are issues that are being addressed in direct response to concerns raised by the Canadian council on health services accreditation, and, as well, my first answer applies to this as well.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, then will the Minister of Health acknowledge or state that he is prepared or this government is prepared to meet the capital requirements for the Health Sciences Centre so that they will not lose any form of accreditation into the future? Will the Minister of Health make that commitment today?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the commitment of this government can easily be measured in our commitment to this date with respect to health care spending. Just yesterday the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) was asking about dialysis services in the province of Manitoba and, you know, since 1989 we have seen a 56 percent increase in the number of people who have accessed services under that program. In terms of expenditure, and this is excluding the medical remuneration and the capital and equipment aspects of it, we have seen a 110 percent increase in spending on that program in a six-year period.

The honourable member for Inkster and the honourable member for Kildonan ought indeed to be able to take some comfort about the priority this government places on the health care of Manitobans.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, what the minister failed to mention, when the accreditation committee visited Health Sciences Centre, they said, and I quote: First and foremost, new operating room construction must proceed and failure to successfully complete the follow-up visit could result in the withdrawal of accreditation status. Since then we have had fruit flies in the operating room, we have had leaky ceilings, we have had surgery cancelled at the Health Sciences Centre, and now the president says the accreditation may be in danger.

My question to the Minister of Health is, when will the minister stop playing games with the people of Manitoba? Since he announced the Health Sciences Centre is the major trauma centre in Manitoba, when will you get on with the construction that jeopardizes the accreditation of the largest tertiary care facility in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Kildonan should have been listening. The honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) just asked that very same question and I just finished answering that very same question. Just because the honourable member for Inkster gets the floor before the honourable member for Kildonan and asks a question, it seems to me the honourable member for Kildonan ought to perhaps give over the time to a member of his caucus to ask some other question. It seems he has a question all written down and come hell or high water he is going to ask that question even if it has already been asked by the honourable member for Inkster.

I answered the question with respect to deficiencies uncovered by the Canadian council on health services accreditation. Health Sciences Centre is working towards meeting the concerns that have been made known and of course the longer term redevelopment of the Health Sciences Centre is a major, major project which in any event takes a number of years to happen, and the planning for that will begin in earnest as we develop our new regional health association system for the governance of health services in Winnipeg.

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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister, who knows there is a proposal before him for $4.5 million to have new ICU beds so cardiac surgery and thoracic surgery will not be cancelled anymore at the Health Sciences Centre, recognize that these piecemeal solutions are not the solution to the problems at the Health Sciences Centre and will they go back to the election promise the government made? The first election promise the Premier (Mr. Filmon) made in the election was they would redo the operating rooms at Health Sciences Centre, and will they go ahead with it so we can get on with proper care at the Health Sciences Centre?

Mr. McCrae: Of course, Madam Speaker, a piecemeal approach is the inappropriate approach. That is what the previous government and governments before that were doing to try to keep up with the demands that were being placed on the health care system. Because we reject the piecemeal approach that the honourable member says he rejects too, that is why we made the announcement we made on August 20 of this year with respect to the future of the health care system in Manitoba. Why will the honourable member not recognize that and support, as everyone else does, that these are the directions that we ought to be going in in order to build a sustainable health care system for the future?

It is the piecemeal approach of the New Democrats that got us in so much trouble in the first place. There is $600 million this year we have to spend to pay interest on the debt run up by those honourable colleagues opposite.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain to the citizens of Winnipeg and Manitoba how it is that the government can promise on August 20 that Health Sciences Centre would be the trauma centre, the main centre for all the province of Manitoba and the city of Winnipeg and at the same time have cancelled the capital program, have fruit flies in the operating room and have surgery cancelled because there are no ICU beds available within the last two weeks? We have raised it over and over again. This is ridiculous and it makes Manitoba look like a laughing stock in the rest of Canada.

Mr. McCrae: It is hard to get the honourable member to understand or believe or accept anything because of the role that he plays as a paid critic in this House. That is what he does. His job is to criticize, not to be helpful. There are many, many other Manitobans who look at things a little differently. There have been over 16,000 of them that we have consulted thus far in our reform efforts here in Manitoba. We have a plan which we laid out on August 20 which enjoys virtually unanimous approval except of course from the honourable member for Kildonan. While everybody else is working towards the solution of our problems, why does the member for Kildonan not work towards a solution of our problems, too?

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, everyone in this Legislature who listened to hearings on the education bills is aware of the pressure of classroom teachers in Manitoba who are on the front lines of dealing with the serious issues facing young people today. They are doing so in larger classes and with fewer resources. I would like to ask the Minister of Education to explain why, according to the figures of her own government and the submitted budgets of school boards, there are 91 fewer full-time teachers in Manitoba public school classrooms this year than last year at a time when enrollments remain stable.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I point out again that we have been detained in this House to deal with the Manitoba Telephone System bill, and once again the members opposite have run out of questions before Question Period is even half over on the telephone system, so they are having to ask other questions because they are tired of asking the same questions over and over on the telephone bill.

However, having said that, I am pleased--[interjection]

Who cares, says the member from--oh, very interesting. The member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) just said, who cares? I think that is very, very interesting. Clearly it is not they who care about the telephone system bill. They keep us here; they cannot even have enough questions--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, not only does the minister not listen to Manitobans, she did not hear what I was saying. I would ask that the minister answer the question which relates to public education which she apparently does not wish to answer.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, on the same point of order.

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, the opposition I think has established all-time records for rising on incorrect points of order. They claim to know Beauchesne, but all their points of order are incorrect. The member is in dispute over the facts. I know what I heard; she knows what she said. No one will ever be able to prove it except everybody here who knows the truth. I will answer the question now--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for St. James, the honourable member for St. James does not have a point of order; it is clearly a dispute over the facts. However, I would remind the honourable Minister of Education to respond to the question asked.

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the facts and indicate to the people of Manitoba that when we took government in 1988-89 the number of teachers in Manitoba was 12,000--I do not have the exact figure, but I can tell you that from 1988-89 until last year, which is the last current figure we have, the number of teachers in Manitoba schools increased by 2.5 percent full-time equivalent teachers while students over the same period of time from 1988-89 until last year, 1995, when we have our last stats, the student enrollment decreased by 1.8 percent.

So, in the time that we have been in office, we have 2.5 percent full-time equivalent more teachers and 1.8 percent fewer students, and that is the bottom line. Those statistics are correct, and they tell the whole story.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, with a supplementary question.

Ms. Friesen: I would like to table the information from the minister's own records, the FRAME final budget; classroom teachers have declined in the number from 1990. Would the minister confirm that for the remaining mandate of this government Manitobans can in fact see exactly the same as is demonstrated in that chart, a continuing decline in the number of classroom teachers, in fact, 663 since 1990?

I want to know if the minister really sees that as the future for the young people of Manitoba.

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Mrs. McIntosh: The member has been very selective in her figures. She is tabling correct figures from the all-time peak high in Manitoba's history which was 1991 when there was a peak in the number of people enrolled in the schools till today when student enrollment has gone down by 1.8 percent, as I indicate. We still have an increase of 2.5 percent full-time equivalent teachers in Manitoba schools since we took office in '88.

The fact that there was a peak in one given year and she chooses to operate from the peak does not negate the fact that we have 2.5 percent more full-time equivalent teachers in Manitoba schools today and 1.8 percent fewer students since we took office in 1988.

I can indicate to you as well that that equates in two ways. One is the pupil-educator ratio, which is the number of educators in the school per student, which is 14.9. We have one educator for 14.9 students in every school. Some of those are resource teachers because we are resource-rich. In terms of class size, the class size is 19 on average in Manitoba, the third best rate in Canada.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley, with a final supplementary question.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us whether she has investigated what the impact has been on Manitoba classrooms of the loss of 5.6 percent of our classroom teachers since 1990 and the loss in fact of 663 full-time equivalent positions? Those are people who are not in the classroom. The class sizes are larger. Manitoba students are being disadvantaged compared to the rest of the country.

Mrs. McIntosh: The member--well, I do not know whether she does not understand, does not hear or does not want to acknowledge the truth of what I have said. Only Newfoundland and the Yukon have smaller class sizes on average than the province of Manitoba. That is a very good statistic.

We have on average and have consistently had--fluctuating within just a one or two percentage point over time--class sizes on average in Manitoba, classroom teacher per number of students fluctuating between 18 and 20 over the years consistently in that area. That is very good.

We also have an extremely rich resource base in the schools. When I say that the pupil-educator ratio is 14.9 to one, I am indicating that there are resource teachers, guidance counsellors, clinicians in the schools to assist classroom teachers who have on average 19 pupils per class with those students in the class who require extra help, to lift that burden from the regular classroom teacher and assist them in bringing students to full productivity.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, on Thursday the Minister responsible for MTS confirmed that a privatized MTS can be owned by any other company, the board can be made up of non-Manitobans and the real head office could be in Basking Ridge, New Jersey, where AT&T has head office or Timbuktu if that is what a new owner wants, as soon as the government debt is paid off in four years.

Will the minister now take steps to ensure that all Manitobans know his promises about the future control of Manitoba Telephone, its head office and its ownership are shams?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, I would ask the member opposite to read very carefully the bill and the amendments that were passed in committee. If he would read very carefully, he will find out that statements we have made in the past, that the registered head office, 12(1) in the bill, shall be in the province and the amendment added that provides the corporation shall not continue out of the province, and 13(4) the majority of directors of the company shall be ordinarily resident of the province. Those elements of the bill live on forever. They live on forever regardless of the process of continuance which is contained in the bill under Section 14, allows for continuance of those provisions forever within the province of Manitoba as long as the bill is not amended in this House.

The member chooses not to understand the process that the bill goes through, the process over time, but those provisions of board of directors and head office and not continuing out of the province requires that they stay here forever.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister order MTS to put out an ad to tell Manitobans the truth about the privately owned MTS and its future control and its future ownership in particular, and will he tell his own backbenchers not to write to their constituents, as Mr. Radcliffe has done, making promises which cannot be sustained by the bill as it now stands in terms of the ownership of MTS? Tell him to cease and desist.

Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, I think that member likes to say that people do not have freedom of expression and I find that intolerable. People have the right to believe what they want to believe. People have the right to express their opinions.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System, to complete his response.

Mr. Findlay: The many editorial writers in the province of Manitoba in many papers have the right to explain to the public why this is the right thing for Manitobans, it is the right thing for the government of Manitoba, it is the right thing for the Manitoba Telephone System to respond to the new world. It has the right to tell the world that they are feeble in their approach. They have a right to say that they are foolish in their approach which many editorials have done because they refuse, they keep their head in the sand, refuse to acknowledge the world has changed and the competition level over there requires MTS to have the freedom to respond quickly and aggressively to those opportunities that exist in the telecom world.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister finally tell Manitobans that his government has planned its sham protection to expire four years from now in the year 2000, conveniently just after the next provincial election? Nice timing.

Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, the member is so desperate for a third question, he repeats the first question, which very clearly I answered to him. If he would read the bill, he would find that the protections we have indicated are there, will be there, will continue forever.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.