Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Committee of Supply come to order, please.

This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Health. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time.

We are on Resolution 21.3, item (c) Home Care (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate once again the opportunity to ask questions of the Minister of Health and look forward to a number of more questions and appreciate the recognition, of course.

Yesterday, I was asking the minister before my time had run out regarding home care services and what the government was doing, the Department of Health was doing in terms of trying to get an idea on other models across Canada in particular. One of the areas that I started to talk about was the idea of nonprofit groups, and I started to focus in on community clinics.

I am wondering if the minister can give the Chamber some idea in terms of what the province of Quebec or other community clinics that are out there might be providing in home care services to clients.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairman, our community health centres in Manitoba play a very valuable and significant role in our health system, more at the primary end of health care than the honourable member's question might imply. We looked at all the various programs throughout the country in the development of our initiatives, and, of course, Manitoba leads the pack basically with our Home Care program. We are proud of that. We are pleased with that, but there are also some shortcomings in the program that we think can be addressed.

We have looked at the Quebec model as well as all the others, but, ultimately, Manitoba's always seems to rise to the top, so how do you make the good even better? Well, you proceed with incremental-type changes of the kind that we are talking about. Yesterday, I had not finished setting out for the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) all the various improvements that have been made over the course of the last 10 years, and perhaps this afternoon we could get into that a little bit more. The allegation made is that you have not done anything all these years and now all of a sudden you are going to do this thing that you are about to do.

So we do not live in a world where it is all one way or all another way. It is certainly not that nothing has been done to improve the performance of our program over the years. That has been done, and I would even probably say the previous government probably made changes over the years that in some way or other improved the system, and I would give them whatever credit they are due for whatever improvements they made. They did, however, develop quite a monopoly situation which has not proved, in all cases, to be in the best interests of the client of our program. We think that there certainly is room for competition in order to bring about a higher level of excellence in the program.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I guess what I am looking for is to see if I can get some specifics as to why it would not be in Manitobans', and particularly the clients', best interest, to have these local community clinics or possibly even hospital boards, community hospital boards, investing or providing this particular service, again, in a nonprofit capacity. I look at the Nor'West community clinic that we have in Shaughnessy Park, and it provides a number of programs that would complement home care services. One would think that if the skill level, which I believe is there, were to be maximized through training or government workshops, you could have quite easily, one would think, the ability to be able to administer home care services through nonprofit groups such as the one I have alluded to.

I am wondering if the minister would not agree with that: if they were provided with the tools and the ways and means, a group like that would be able to administer home care services in quite a cost-efficient fashion.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I hope the honourable member does not think that we are sitting still with respect to home care. His question suggests that hospitals, for example, community health centres could, in some way, be involved to a greater extent in home care, and they are. St. Boniface General Hospital runs a home intravenous therapy program, which just recently was expanded significantly. Of course, there was competition which was part of that. I do not know. Was it a coincidence or was it because it was the right thing to happen that the Victorian Order of Nurses, the nonprofit agency, was the successful bidder in that particular competition? That was one example. There are other communities in Manitoba that are looking at various delivery options for home care services. You see, what the honourable member for Inkster has done has been wittingly or otherwise to allow himself to be sucked into the New Democratic-union biological relationship that they have--organic fusion, that is the word I am looking for. He has done that before. I remember the time when his leader was Paul Edwards and--

Mr. Lamoureux: He still is, actually.

Mr. McCrae: Oh, still is. I am sorry. I thought you were the leader right now. In any event, I remember the whole issue of final offer selection, another philosophical issue between the labour movement and the government, and the Liberals thought, well, somehow, we can capitalize on this because the NDP are over there and the Conservatives are over there, maybe we Liberals can get involved and come out the big winners. Well, that is not exactly what happened, as the honourable member will recall.

I suggest, and I know the member will look at any political advice I give him with a jaundiced eye, no doubt. However, I say that if there is a political lesson for the honourable member for Inkster, it is to remember the old expression about politics and how it makes strange bedfellows. It is rare to see the New Democrats and the Liberals lock arms the way they do in this particular dispute and kind of become soul mates on an issue like the one we are dealing with these days, that the Liberals should move so far to the left that they are virtually indistinguishable from the New Democrats. Be careful is the only advice I give on that, because there is another old expression, and that is that if you lie down with dogs you are going to wake up with fleas, and I just caution the honourable member for Inkster on that.

In his own way he is trying in this House to explore options that might somehow put some distance between him and the New Democrats, distance which he could have avoided having to put between them in the first place, by taking a pragmatic approach rather than an idealistic or a dogmatic approach, that only nonprofit is the only way to go in this world of ours.

Well, it is not. It is one way to go but it is not the only way. It is not the only way to get results. Honourable members have gone to great lengths to fight this battle on behalf of the unions and I cannot understand why the Liberals want to get so close to the union bosses, who will only turn on them in any event. They might thank you for your help today but they will not be there for you when you need them, when the cheques get written. Those cheques go to the NDP, they do not go to the Liberals, not as I understand it.

So in that regard, all I do is ask the honourable member to keep an open mind, which I know he is going to say his mind is always open, but I say to you, think of the clients while your mind is open. Put the clients before every other consideration and everything becomes clearer as to what ought to be done, when you put the focus on the people we are here for. We would not be here if it was not for the consumer. That is why we are here. There are other people who look at vested interests, monopoly interests, interests that have had the control for obviously quite a long time and like it that way. The honourable member should remember who it is we are here to represent.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I would appeal to the Minister of Health also to keep a very open mind in dealing in particular with the home care services. That has not been the case over the last while. The minister has chosen to stick to a position which in the long term ultimately is not going to be in the best interests of the clients. That is the reason why we have argued and we will continue to argue, the best thing that this minister can do is put on the 12-month moratorium, consult with the clients and other vested interest groups and other Manitobans and see in terms of what they have to say because, ultimately, I believe that there is a better way.

Yes, change is something that has to occur. I am not here to defend the status quo at all cost. If it can be demonstrated that we can provide in the long term a better quality of service through a particular proposal or through a particular change, we would be supportive of it. The current proposal of privatization for profit is not something that we believe is going to see a better quality of service at the end of the day. It is definitely not going to see a sense of equity throughout the system and the province of Manitoba, and that is why I believe it is very legitimate to try to get the minister on the record in terms of just what he has done prior to making this decision.

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When the minister speaks and responds to a question, I do not believe--at least he has not been successful at convincing me that he has done his homework on it, that he has in fact consulted with the potential of community health centres. You know, I look whether it is Nor'West Co-op, Hope Centre, the Mount Carmel Clinic, Youville Centre, the Health Action Centre, the Klinic, the Village Clinic, these are all organizations that are primarily nonprofit from what I understand, and could be openly in competition, bidding, if you like, if the minister is that keen on bidding but they have a completely different priority. Their major objective is not to raise a dollar or to raise a profit. Their primary objective is very much community-based, client oriented. These services out of these nonprofit groups could complement home care services and that is the reason why we say, look, put the 12-month moratorium freeze, let us allow the minister to do some homework. If he believes that privatization is the direction that we have to go, well, then let us hear some more evidence that the minister knows what the long-term impact of these decisions are going to be.

The opinion that I have been given is that the minister, for whatever reason, has chosen private, for-profit and many people just go out and walk the picket line, as I have done with some of the home care workers--and the minister says he has too. If the minister has done that and he has talked to some of the health care workers and if he has talked to some of the clients, he should be getting the same message that I am getting. That message is, Mr. Chairperson, that the private, for-profit is not the direction to be going, or if you are going to persist with it, demonstrate to us how in the long term that you are going to be able to provide a quality home care service that is relatively equal to all Manitobans.

The private sector is not going to allow that to occur before profit because it is the extras that have to be billed, that will be billed for where the cream of the profit is going to be made. That is where that business, if you like, that private, for-profit business is going to put their extra efforts because once you establish the core services and here is your core clientele, what they are going to do is sell wherever they can.

If you take a look at the demographics of the city of Winnipeg or the socioeconomic strata of the province of Manitoba, you will find there are many people who just do not have the economic ability to pay for these extra services. The concern then becomes is that what will happen is you will get that two-tier system. That is the reason why we are saying to the government, if you are so convinced that you have to change the system towards privatization, at least give more consideration or special treatment to nonprofit organizations such as the ones I have listed off. You could add to that the Victorian Order of Nurses.

I heard the Minister of Health, on CJOB, say, we want nurses to get involved and he is extending his hand. Well, help them up, I would suggest to the minister. If he is convinced or he is sincere in his comments, why does he not provide workshops that will allow nonprofit groups such as our community clinics, such as individual nurses, the opportunity to explore the whole concept of the benefits of nonprofit over for-profit? If the minister was prepared to do that, he needs time, and that time could be the 12-month moratorium. Sit down with people, come to some basic agreements, if you like, that will at least provide those essential services that the minister wants to see for the clients.

The Liberal Party is thinking of the clients just as much, if not more, than the Minister of Health. We are as equally concerned, if not more, about our clients. We have been asking that question right from the beginning. That is, in fact, our first priority, but we recognize the need for this minister to put in that moratorium.

We will applaud the minister. There is no shame. Many would say, well, you backed the minister into a corner, and now he has to follow through on it. Well, Mr. Chairperson, I would not ridicule. I would give the minister high marks if he decided that he would put in the 12-month moratorium and agree to consult with some different organizations and some people with the idea of change. The Liberal Party supports change. It is the way in which this minister is managing that change that we really question.

Mr. Chairperson, I could probably go on for hours on home care services, but I know that we have already consumed a great deal of time. We have talked about home care services earlier. I would ask the minister to comment, to demonstrate just what the minister is prepared to do to go the extra mile for the nonprofit and, particularly, the training. At least he is putting in some days. He has put in, I think it is a 60-day moratorium, before the tendering goes out.

Well, maybe the government can take the initiative and provide some sort of a promotion and training workshops for nonprofit organizations to be able to participate in and see what level of interest is there, and, hopefully, Mr. Chairperson, I only have one minute left, the minister would take us up on that.

There is absolutely no shame whatsoever in trying to address this issue. The minister had something that was put to him. He has refused what the KPMG, I believe it is, or the Price Waterhouse report about the user fees and so forth. He has made some positive comments in regard to home care services. Let us see if, in fact, the Minister of Health is prepared to go that little bit extra for our clients in providing that long-term commitment to home care services and equality and equity. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, on May 3, the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) requested my department to follow up with the Manitoba College of Physicians and Surgeons with respect to the specific case of an individual with multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome. Dr. Ken Collier of my department wrote the college on March 28, 1996, and subsequently provided additional information on April 19, 1996. A formal response from the college is currently pending.

The honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) continues to press for special status for nonprofit agencies. He has not yet acknowledged the fact that they already have special status. They do not have to build profit into their bids, so they already have a leg up on the profit-making organizations.

The honourable member misrepresents my position when he says that my position favours the profit makers because the bidding process is open to anyone. That includes all of the community health centres listed off by the honourable member for Inkster. They are quite welcome to bid for--and if they can meet the rigorous standards that this government sets with regard to home care delivery, and if they can also come in at a rate that is competitive with everybody else, then those agencies would be in just as strong a position as anyone else. So I would appreciate it if the honourable member would not misrepresent my position. My position is not to exclude nonprofit organizations.

Certainly we have had a good working relationship with the Victorian Order of Nurses over the years. We have had an excellent working relationship with other nonprofit agencies like the Grey Nuns, for example, who operate the St. Boniface General Hospital and numerous other health-related services in Manitoba. The last I heard, the sisters of the Misericordia were not a profit-oriented organization, and yet, for many, many decades, the Misericordia General Hospital has been working with the health system in Manitoba. We have had long-standing working relationships with Mennonite organizations, Lutheran organizations, Baptist organizations, Jewish organizations, Seventh Day Adventist organizations, all with a view to providing good quality health services in our province. So it is not fair for the honourable member to suggest that my wish for competition is simply to exclude everybody but profit makers. It is totally misleading for the honourable member to do that.

Let me give an example. We have a physician in Brandon who wants to see a for-profit--he is leaving Brandon. He is going to Atlanta, Georgia. He does not like the system here in Manitoba. I mentioned Paul Edwards a while ago because he takes the side of these--no, I remember. He does not take the side. He wanted me to--Dr. Bill Myers raised a similar point, a Brandon doctor, about the future of health care in Canada. Paul Edwards wanted me to condemn my friend and long-time acquaintance Dr. Bill Myers for some of his comments about health care. Dr. Harold Silverman is saying similar things. I do not condemn Dr. Silverman for his beliefs. Just in case the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was thinking of following in his Leader's footsteps and asking me to condemn people for their opinions, I will politely decline to do that.

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There are some things I disagree with, and the honourable member may agree with me on this one. Dr. Silverman, in letting the public know that he is unhappy and that he wants more money for Brandon General Hospital and everything, he is going to make his case by going to Atlanta. I cannot figure out how that is going to help Brandon General Hospital, but he says: I think eventually it is going to have to go into privatization. I think part of that will be that we give everybody, which will follow the Canada Health Act, a core group of coverage for life-threatening illnesses. Anything outside of that, you buy insurance and you pay for it.

An Honourable Member: Who said that?

Mr. McCrae: Dr. Harold Silverman, who is leaving Brandon to head for Atlanta, Georgia.

Well, this is what Paul Edwards wants me to condemn. The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) reminds me Paul Edwards is still his leader. But this sounds awfully like what I heard Prime Minister Chretien say. Jean Chretien says, if it is a catastrophic situation, then our health system should cover it. Sounds like Dr. Silverman. So I guess Dr. Silverman is spouting Liberal policy, which is to get out of health care for most things and just have health care for a few things.

Well, I should, I guess, quote myself too, just so that the record is complete here. In the same newspaper reporting on the unfortunate decision by Dr. Silverman, which, by the way, we regret--I know Dr. Silverman to be an extremely capable and talented surgeon. I do not know, maybe even world-class surgeon, thoracic surgeon.

Here is what I said, as recorded in today's Brandon Sun: We have a system in Canada that is for all 27 million of us, McCrae said, and Dr. Silverman's recipe is not for 27 million, it is for 15 million and the remainder can eat cake, and that is not what the Canadian experiment is all about.

So I would like it very much if the honourable member for Inkster--I know he is listening intently to everything I have to say here--would clear up the record a little bit because I am genuinely confused. [interjection] I told you he was. I told you. I am genuinely confused because on the one hand his leader Paul Edwards wants me to condemn Dr. Bill Myers of Brandon for saying things similar to what Dr. Silverman is saying. Then he says that, well, you know, he is a supporter of Jean Chretien and the Liberals, the ones that are hacking and slashing away at our ability to deliver health care services across this country, and then he says there is no room for profit makers in the system. He has got so many versions of the same topic that it is quite impossible for me to know whether I should vote for him next time around, Mr. Chairman, or whether I should support his leadership bid. Now, maybe I am not a card-carrying Liberal and cannot be there to cast a vote for him, but I could put in a word here and there that--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister has two minutes remaining. But I would ask him to be a little bit more relevant towards the line we are dealing with. I was listening quite intently, and he had drifted just a little bit.

The honourable minister, to conclude.

Mr. McCrae: You are absolutely right, Mr. Chairman; there are times that I digress. I guess it is just that I feel so passionately about some of these things that my feelings tend to run away with me, and I should indeed be relevant.

So I will talk about the Advisory Committee to the Continuing Care Program, back to the theme raised by the New Democrats that nothing has been done in home care. I was up to the No. 9 initiative yesterday when I was talking about what has been done in home care, and I will continue to talk about what has been done in the home care for the remainder of my time. The Manitoba Health re-established an Advisory Committee to the Continuing Care Program. The terms of reference for the committee are to identify service delivery issues and/or concerns of recipients of program services; to advise on the emerging trends and new models of service delivery developed or delivered in other jurisdictions and countries; to identify options for revising and/or improving current delivery systems as requested; to consult with relevant organizations and sectors concerning potential developments and initiatives within the Continuing Care Program.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I want to deal with some administrative matters initially in terms of where we are going in these Estimates, but I am also going to editorialize in the course of my administrative comments.

In that regard, I just want to indicate that I do not sense a lot of progress on the Home Care front in terms of information going back and forth. For the information of the minister, I think what we are basically planning is to complete Home Care today and to move into other areas possibly today. I know other areas take us into mental health and the like, and I am not sure if the minister's staff--and I have not given warning of that, so I am attempting by way of just this initial question to determine whether or not, if we do get down at the mental health and other related areas, whether the minister would have the appropriate staff--not that the staff have not done an excellent job that have been here, I just do not know if it is the appropriate staff, and they have done a really good job.

Just by way of clarification, I can indicate that we have absolutely no difficulty extending today to deal completely with Home Care. I am not sure how far we are going to get down that road, which is one of the reasons I am thinking of moving ahead.

Mr. McCrae: I think the honourable member is like me; he just cannot seem to get enough of a discussion about Home Care. I mean, I am anxious to roll up my sleeves and talk about Home Care, because I am so very proud of the program, and I am so very proud of the future of this program and the opportunities I see for improvements for making a win-win-win-win-win situation for Manitobans.

I join with you, Mr. Chairman, in inviting the honourable member to remain seated this afternoon. We would think not one iota less of him if he remained in his seat under all the circumstances. [interjection] Now, Harry, you have been away and maybe you did not know that the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has hurt his foot, quite badly as a matter of fact. Thank goodness for the wonderful people at Seven Oaks General Hospital who patched him up and will probably have him as good as new within a reasonable period of time. We are very happy about that.

I would also like to join with my colleague the member for Kildonan in paying tribute to the work done thus far by staff of the department assisting us through these Estimates. I think that we have been quite responsive. I do not know that there are very many outstanding items that need to be researched in order to provide the honourable member--I know the honourable member sometimes says I fail to be as responsive as he would like, but you certainly cannot blame anybody else but me for that, Mr. Chairman, and I am sure the honourable member is not doing that.

It is true, we could probably talk about Home Care for the rest of the afternoon quite easily, and I would welcome that opportunity.

I have been invited to attend--earlier today the honourable member very graciously invited me to attend a couple of further--what did you call it, a forum?

An Honourable Member: Public hearings.

Mr. McCrae: Public hearings, he calls it, with respect to home care, which I have equally graciously, I hope, declined. I see the honourable member took great pains to point out how nonpartisan the organization of this is. I see a letterhead here. Judy Wasylycia-Leis is a key player in the organization of this. I remember Judy. We used to call her Judy Two Names at times, but Judy Wasylycia-Leis was the Health critic for the New Democratic Party as I recall, just prior to the honourable member for Kildonan taking over that lofty position.

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(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

I do not remember anyone accusing Ms. Wasylycia-Leis of being nonpartisan in her approach. If anybody did, I would like them to come forward and let me hear them justify that sort of position. As I recall, she also was a candidate for the New Democrats in the last federal election. Mr. Chairman, you may recall that particular election.

I see that a key organizer of all of this is Judy Wasylycia-Leis. The honourable member, why would he go to such great pains to tell us how nonpartisan this whole thing was? When I saw the emphasis he was putting on how nonpartisan this whole exercise was, I wondered immediately how much there was to that claim.

Indeed, I am not afraid, Mr. Chairman. I was on the picket line on Saturday, met a very nice bunch of people there. One of them was a woman who wrote some poetry for me and suggested I put it to music. I think that the whole idea was to give us all some guidance as we approach our duties. I am always inspired by people who care. I mean whether you are on the picket line or not on the picket line, the majority of the people in this province genuinely care about their fellow Manitobans. There are some exceptions to that rule. I have discussed that and I will not go into it in detail right now.

But I also had occasion to walk the picket line. No, I was offering some refreshments to the people on the line, but this particular time in Brandon, I guess it was a warm enough day, they did not feel they wanted to accept my hospitality, but I was out there offering them some fresh donuts that were purchased for the occasion and walking the picket line with them, chatting and just more or less having a nice time. There were one or two who were chatting in rather a loud voice, but otherwise the rest were pretty nice to me, and, hopefully, they believe me when I tell them I am trying to listen to everybody’s concerns.

That is the kind of place Manitoba is. People believe in something, and they do not mind, sometimes, taking to the streets to put their message out. My only concern is sometimes they are led by some people who have different motives than those very fine people who are out there putting forward their point of view. I know you are not supposed to talk about motives in a negative kind of way in this place, so I will be very careful about that, Mr. Chairman.

With respect to mental health issues, we will be prepared to discuss mental health issues starting tomorrow if that is okay. If the honourable member wants to start later today on that topic, we can carry on with the staff that we have with us here today. I do not know exactly what direction the member will be going. We may be able to manage with the present staff on the mental health issues.

We are, generally speaking, quite pleased with developments in mental health reform in Manitoba. It is going in the right direction. I think most of our process is the subject of all-around approbation. Not everybody likes every single move that gets made, but, certainly, in general terms we are going in the right direction.

I would like to respond to a question put by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) on May 3. It had to do with the Urban Health Planning Partnership, and I have some information for tabling today with respect to the strategy teams that the honourable member was asking about so I will do that now.

And I was talking about the Advisory Committee to the Continuing Care Program. I did not quite get finished so one of the terms of reference was to identify options for revising and/or improving the current delivery systems, and as requested to consult with relevant organizations and sectors concerning potential developments and initiatives within the Continuing Care Program, to participate in subcommittees and/or working committees as required and provide consultation to the director and staff of the program, to assess the nature and trends of client initiated service reviews and identify the need for program policy and procedural reviews, to promote and advise on the educational needs of service providers in the Continuing Care Program regarding the scope, intent and goals of the program, to promote and advise the general public on the scope, intent and goals of the Continuing Care Program.

Then the 11th initiative--I mean this is enough to boggle your mind, Mr. Chairman. We had so many initiatives and improvements in our Home Care system over the last 10 years that anybody who suggests that nothing has been done has been either sleeping, not paying attention or is simply trying to put across something that is not true.

I will deal very briefly with the community intravenous antibiotic therapy program. The expansion of the community intravenous IV therapy program managed by St. Boniface Hospital was announced in January of 1996. The community IV therapy program allows individuals to receive IV antibiotic therapy in their home environment, therefore reducing hospital length of stay and minimizing return outpatient visits to hospitals in Winnipeg.

Under this expansion, the program now serves long-term--that means greater than five days--clients capable of administering their medication, long-term clients who are not self-care and short term. That means less than five days--clients. St. Boniface Hospital is responsible for program co-ordination and management. The Victorian Order of Nurses, a nonprofit agency, won the tender competition to deliver the community IV nursing service to support the program. The current program now has the capacity to serve 30 clients at any given time. Plans are in development to further expand the program to include other drug regimes and to provide services outside of Winnipeg.

Again, I do take issue with the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) when he misrepresents the position that we want to exclude nonprofit in health care delivery.

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for his comments about my physical condition, I appreciate the words. I guess we will see how the process works in terms of where we are going. Again, we are anticipating to move along in home care, to probably move through mental health and other areas and get into hospitals fairly extensively, probably tomorrow. That is roughly where we are heading, so we basically understand that.

I have a couple of issues that I wanted to deal with. Firstly, the comments about the minister's invitation and I again extend an invitation to the minister. I had planned to attend as much of the hearings tomorrow and Thursday as possible as time permits, because I think it will be a very useful experience.

The minister made mention about my emphasis on the nonpartisan nature of it, and the minister will note that the AIDS Shelter Coalition, Canadian Federation of Students, Christian development council of Winnipeg Presbytery, community nurses grassroots committee, Council of Women, First Nations with disability, informal caregivers network, Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women, the Manitoba oblate justice and peace committee, the Manitoba Society of Seniors, the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg, the social responsibility committee of the Unitarian Church and others were all participating in this event.

The point I was making--

Mr. McCrae: Choices?

Mr. Chomiak: Yes, and there are other groups that the minister alleges are partisan. The point I was making also was that the panel--I was emphasizing the panel, and if you look through the panel members--

Mr. McCrae: The Manitoba Government Employees' Union is in there.

Mr. Chomiak: I do not know if the minister is suggesting that people like Lesley Hughes, the eminent broadcaster and writer, people like David Martin, the president of Manitoba League of Persons with Disabilities, people like Fred Olds, a Catholic priest--I think all of these people the minister does a disservice by suggesting somehow that these people are partisan. I think that their involvement is a very, very positive step forward.

Prominent members of the community are coming forward to sit on a panel to assess the situation. I think the minister ought to take note of that fact when he considers his involvement or his noninvolvement in this particular exercise, because it really will be the first time that the public will have an opportunity to comment and to participate on the privatization scam as enunciated by the minister in his December 16 Treasury Board submission signed off by the minister calling for privatization.

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There has been no opportunity for the public to have input into that process and, indeed, as we suggested and as we have indicated on several occasions, in fact, any input even from the minister's own committees and studies have resulted in a negative opinion of the government's privatization scheme. So the government does not have much support, if any, for its scheme. This will afford the government an opportunity to see what the public actually has to say. I think this is an excellent opportunity for the minister. I do not know, Mr. Chairperson, it could be that the public will rally and attend the hearings and say, no, we want the government to privatize. I think that will give us some indication where the public sat. My sense from door knocking and my sense from my other community involvement is that the public is quite against the government's privatization scheme.

I think that has been reflected, but the minister certainly has his chance to attend and to participate and take advantage of a unique forum. In fact, it is being held here at the Legislature for the convenience of, I would not say for the convenience of members, but it certainly is convenient for members to attend, and I would certainly urge the minister to consider or reconsider if he has not planned to attend his participation in the process.

I can indicate for the record that we would be prepared to schedule or work around the Estimates to afford the minister an opportunity so that the minister would have an opportunity--[interjection] That is going far. We certainly are prepared to undertake discussions and I thought, I believe they were undertaken to reschedule Estimates to permit the minister to attend as much of the hearings as possible so he will have an opportunity to listen to what the public has to say.

I think it is an excellent opportunity for the government to participate and for the government to listen, which is something that, if there is anything any of us could do more of, it would be to listen, and certainly an opportunity to hear what the public has to say on home care I think would be welcomed by all members of the Chamber.

So I reiterate my invitation conveyed earlier in the day during Question Period to the minister to attend and I certainly urge the minister to consider attendance as much as possible in order to get a better feel for what Manitobans are saying about the privatization scheme as launched by the government in December and continuing to roll along, contrary to so much we have heard, read and seen, Mr. Chairperson.

Having said that, and recognizing it probably will generate a response from the minister, I did want to turn to my specific questions. The first question is, I thank the minister for providing me with briefing notes on the various strategy committees that have been established in relationship to the Urban Health strategy, and I appreciate the fact that we have the composition of the various teams and also their purposes. I assume it is only an oversight, but I notice that we have gotten, and I appreciate the fact that for each of the committees we have gotten a description of the subject matter and the purpose, the mandate, membership and progress of the committee. But there might be an error in my pages, but in terms of the communication strategy team, all I have got is a sheet that talks about the names of the committee members, but there is no corresponding sheet that deals with purpose, mandate, progress and contact person. I wonder if that was an oversight, and if so if we could have that forwarded to us.

Mr. McCrae: There has been no oversight. I think it was felt relatively apparent what the job of the communications strategy team is. The honourable member knows, because we have been so very open, about the bulletins that have been part of the process, that will continue to be part of our process. I expect that the broader public will be informed through purchased messages either on television or on radio or in the newspapers or leaflets or some kind of quarterly newspaper, whatever has to be done to set the record straight so the people get the truth of what is going on rather than what they are getting from certain interested parties. It would be good for the people to understand what is really going on out there rather than the propaganda they unfortunately get a little too often. So there is no oversight there in terms of mission and purpose and all that stuff.

We hope it is very clear to the honourable member what communication means. It is something that lacks in our society. I suggest that if there was more communication there would be better understanding. That is why I so anxiously and blissfully embrace the opportunity to discuss home care with the honourable member and with others as well. There is no point, however, talking to the same people over and over again just to hear the same message over and over again, which is a philosophical one, that philosophical one being the one espoused so eloquently by the New Democrats and their union boss friends. So, that being said, I do not want to harp on that because I know it is a touchy matter and it might make the honourable member mad at me and then we have another blowup. I do not want to get into that.

So I will go back to what I was saying a little while ago, because there is so much more. When the honourable member for Kildonan concedes that his colleague the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) was wrong when he said nothing has been done for the last 10 years, that is when I will stop telling honourable members about all the things that have been done for the last 10 years. When they finally say enough, enough, uncle, we believe you, you done lots of things, then I will stop telling them about all the wonderful things that we have done.

So I left off discussing the community intravenous antibiotic therapy program, and I will move next to the critical action plan in Winnipeg region. In response to the need to relieve the pressures on acute care facilities in Winnipeg, Home Care Winnipeg region developed the critical action plan during the third quarter of 1994-95. The plan identified four main areas in which action was required: discharge planning, resource development and management, alternate housing and service outside hospital.

Actions arising out of the critical action plan that have been implemented or are in process include expansion of the after-hours emergency service, development of a centralized response team, development of additional resources to respond to back-up services replacement needs, implementation of a hospital-community discharge team, development of alternative housing, care models, expansion of the home IV antibiotic therapy program, implementation of short-term emergency projects in acute care hospitals in Winnipeg and Brandon.

With respect to cleaning and laundry services which were cut, reduced back in 1993, the Home Care policy in respect to cleaning and laundry services for eligible home care clients was extensively reviewed and clarified following consultation with the Advisory Committee to the Continuing Care Program, the Home Care Appeal Panel and regional Home Care staff. It was a good thing we brought those agencies into existence, because I think it was a piece that was needed to get us on the right track, to get the public to understand that we were on the right track and wished to remain on the right track. So that was a very important move to make.

With respect to off-site services, the Home Care program recognizes the need of increasingly larger numbers of adults living in the community and participating in workplace, education and other community activities to have a more expanded range of the service options available to promote their independence and well-being. Limited supports do exist in education and workplace settings, but these fall short of adequately addressing essential personal care needs of disabled persons.

To accommodate this need for home care services outside the home, the program is currently recommending more flexible guidelines be applied such that where a client has been assessed as eligible to receive personal care services, the program will transfer such services to alternate sites as necessary to enable adults to meet their work and educational commitments. Where the client is approved for Self-managed Care within the Home Care program, the assessment will not differentiate based on the site of care.

With respect to the policy of limiting costs, in accordance with the mandate of the Home Care program and in recognition of a changing client population with higher service needs, the program is recommending revisions to its cost limit policy which would take into account people who require greater services.

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This is contrary to the NDP-commissioned Price Waterhouse report, which says that the NDP should bring in user fees and cut services. We disagree with that policy. We do not mind saying that just because a report says it that it is written in stone that you must do it.

The honourable member keeps talking about reports that, you know, you should listen to Connie Curran. Before that he did not want us to listen to Connie Curran, because anything Connie Curran would say would be wrong, but now that he knows that Connie Curran does not necessarily agree with the policy of the government to introduce competition, now somehow Connie Curran is not such a big threat anymore.

Funny how it works, Mr. Chairman. Then they have to bring in three busloads of Americans from Minneapolis, give them their debriefing and give them their propaganda and then march them into the Legislature here to say, oh, you are on the wrong track. What the member did not tell you when those seniors came from the U.S.A. to visit our fine, fair province, he took them down to the union hall to have them oriented before they spoke to the public media here in Manitoba. Interesting how anything American is bad, and yet they do not mind exploiting three busloads of senior citizens from Minnesota who came here and helped promote their union agenda. I guess to them the end justifies the means, and, well, to me, I think it is not my kind of approach to exploit three busloads of senior citizens.

Anyway, with respect to the guaranteed service policy, this is something that was not there, and I am sure Price Waterhouse had a lot to say about that too, but, no, we will just go back to the way it was in the first place--that is the official policy of the NDP as enunciated by the Health critic for the party. Just go back to the way it was in the first place.

If the honourable member could only be a fly on the wall in my office sometimes, he would hear some of the horror stories that are coming forward from people who would like to see improvements to our system. These horror stories are nobody’s fault, Mr. Chairman. There is a tendency on the part of some people to say that everything gets personalized in this business, and it does not. There are things that need to be improved, let us improve them. Let us not point a bunch of fingers at each other; let us just get on with the job of providing better services to our clients in the home care system.

I will talk about guaranteed service perhaps at a subsequent time, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chomiak: I think an objective observer might note a bit of defensiveness in most of the minister’s last 10-minute response. Mr. Chairperson, I am tempted to again go through the inaccuracies in the minister’s statement, but it does not seem to accomplish anything in this forum, so I am not going to do that. It is fairly clear from the record, and I am not going down that road again with the minister because it only leads to--well, it is certainly not productive to this Estimates process.

My question to the minister is with respect to Schedule 5 of the Supplementary Estimates relating to the Home Care Assistance Detail, and I wonder if the minster, firstly, could break down how the $17,520,000 as it relates to Supply and Services is intended to be allocated for this coming fiscal year.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, $8,368,400 will go to the Victorian Order of Nurses for nursing; $560,300 will go to the Victorian Order of Nurses for home help; $764,200 will go to therapy services; $1,792,300 will go to FOKUS, Luther Home and Cluster Housing; $1,439,900 will go to Self-managed Care; $4,595,200 will go to other supplies and services--for a total of $17,520,300.

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for that response. Can the minister give me an idea of how many people are now enrolled in Self-managed Care and how many more are anticipated? Last year I believe we had a sort of maximum level that we were targeting for, if the minister can give me those, whether or not that applies. How many people are in it, and how much room is there still within Self-managed Care for individuals to apply?

Mr. McCrae: I think there are 53 Manitobans enrolled in that program, and there is room for as many as 110 to 120. Actually, there is probably room for more than that. It had been our initial expectation that there might be that kind of uptake which has not yet happened, but there is certainly room for more if clients want that option.

Mr. Chomiak: The minister indicated $8,680,000 would go to the VON for the nursing contract. As I understand it, no nursing contract is signed at this point for the fiscal year of '96-97, so I am a bit unclear as to what the minister meant by that.

Mr. McCrae: We are operating under a contract with the Victorian Order of Nurses which has been extended twice.

Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister give me the end date of that contract, please?

Mr. McCrae: Yes, subsequently. At this moment we do not have the date, but we will get that for the member.

Mr. Chomiak: Is the minister saying that the nursing portion of home care service under which the VON contract operates is not going to be tendered for 1996-97?

Mr. McCrae: The extension of the contract with the VON is for the purpose of preparing to move to competition, and when competition begins, that contract will end.

Mr. Chomiak: But just for my understanding, the minister is going to be providing us with details as to the extension date of the present contract and the arrangement under which VON is operating. Is that a correct assumption?

Mr. McCrae: That is correct.

Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the minister might be able to give me an anticipated breakdown of the $58,725,000 to be allocated to direct service workers, how it breaks down in terms of the anticipated kinds and levels of support that are being offered.

* (1550)

Mr. McCrae: Home care attendant services account for $32,626,700. Home support worker services account for $7,709,900. R.N. and LPN nursing services, this would be in addition to the VON nursing services, accounts for $4,681,900. With respect to overnight and daily services, $3,736,500. Other payroll expenditures relating to direct service workers amount to $9,970,500.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, does the minister have corresponding figures for last year, for the $52,481?

Mr. McCrae: Yes, and in every category except the last, which is other payroll related services which I will have to break down, there are projected to be very significant increases but overall something in the neighbourhood of a $6-million increase in this area alone. So for Home Care attendant services, $28,276,000 last year; for home support worker services, $7,229,700 last year; for R.N. and LPN nursing services, $4,097,900 last year; for overnight and daily services last year $2,774,600--a whole million right there increased year over year in terms of our projections. Here, with respect to other payroll related services, $10,103,000 last year.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, could the minister give me a breakdown of what payroll and other related services refers to?

Mr. McCrae: We will double-check that to make sure that, what we think it is, is what it is.

Mr. Chomiak: I apologize, but I wonder if the minister could again go through the breakdown of the '96-97 expenditures just to make certain that I have it accurately.

Mr. McCrae: We will go from start to finish for 1996-97. For direct service workers, home care attendants $32,626,700; home support workers, $7,709,900; R.N. and LPN nursing, $4,681,900; overnight daily, $3,736,500; other payroll related, $9,970,500; for VON nursing, $8,368,400; for VON home help, $560,300; therapy services, $764,200; FOKUS, Luther Home, Cluster Housing, $1,792,300; Self-managed Care, $1,439,900; other supplies and services, $4,595,200. For a total for supplies and services, $17,520,300; other operating expenses of $161,800; for total other expenditures, $79,736,200.

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for going through those numbers again. The minister indicated there was $4 million for supplies and services under the Supplies and Services category. I assume that is for the Home Care equipment and supply depot?

Mr. McCrae: For the depot and supplies that are delivered to the individual clients.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, can the minister indicate, can he give us a status update of the status of the Home Care equipment and supply depot? Because there have been some concerns and some speculation about the future of the Home Care equipment and supply depot.

I wonder if the minister can sort of give us and, in phrasing my question, I recognize that there were some discussions concerning the ostomy supplies recently and that has been resolved to everyone's satisfaction, but there have been concerns that have been expressed about the future of the home care equipment and supplies people. I wonder if the minister can outline in his answer what the government position is, the status of that agency is and what the government sees for the future.

Mr. McCrae: At the present time, the future of the depot that we see is its current status. I have heard too that the gossip mill is at work as usual in the union shops around here and the union picket lines and places like that. It seems like the union bosses, either they have something that they can work with and, if they do not, they will make something up. I mean, it is quite a phenomenon that you just make stuff up and float it out there and have fun with it. If it works for you, use it; if it does not, make up something else. I find it quite repugnant, but that is what happens with union bosses. They seem to have that penchant.

The Home Care program is projecting significant, significant increases in support from government. That is in line with what we have been doing. The information I have made available to this House is consistent with that. Funding has increased every year since this government took office, every year, and, yet, we hear talk of cuts.

It is a little hard to accept and so one has to bend every effort to make sure the true story is placed before the people of Manitoba, because there are people who for their own selfish interests would like the people to believe things that are not true, Mr. Chairman. Unfortunate though that is, it happens, and we are not going to put up with it anymore. People who want to mislead the public are going to get caught doing that, and the public will not be misled for very long, because the forces of truth will replace the forces of falsehood.

I want the people to know a little more about the funding of the program, so I will refer again to the document that I referred to previously respecting funding for the Home Care program each year since 1988, if I can find it amongst the mountains of reports about home care, all of which I have made available to honourable colleagues in this House, the mountains of information that I have shared, the recommendations both in favour of certain things we are doing, some not in favour of things we are doing. The whole idea is to have that dialogue and that discussion, and that certainly has been happening. It is certainly happening now and has been for some time. There are those who have their own interests to protect who are out there saying, oh, this is all new, this is all new. You are springing something on an unwilling Manitoba public about which they know nothing. Well, give people credit, Mr. Chairman, for a little bit of intelligence. Union bosses insult our intelligence daily in this province, and it is time that they and their NDP colleagues were brought to account for their behaviour.

So in 1988-89 the expenditure on the province-wide Home Care program was $39,012,300. That year 23,400 people were served and there were 3,398,819 units of service. The next year, in 1989-90, that number soared, the expenditures soared to $42,204,600. It is an increase of $3,192,300, 8.2 percent, Mr. Chairman. The number of people served did not soar that year, just the number of dollars spent on the program. The number of people actually dropped by 481 to 22,922,000, minus 2 point--

* (1600)

Point of Order

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I have been listening very carefully to the minister's response, and I indicated previous that I did not want to get into a debate because this forum is a question-and-answer forum. If you will note, I posed a very specific question on the Home Care equipment and supply depot. I did not ask for a history, a resuscitation again of the minister's support for the Home Care program going back to 1988. My question was specifically aimed at the status and the future of the Home Care equipment and supply depot. The minister may choose not to answer that question. The minister may choose to answer the question, but the minister goes off on a tangent that is completely irrelevant to the question posed.

Mr. Chairperson, I might also add that when we are in the general expenditure item of this Estimates process we were called to order, and when I did call points of order the Chair constantly said we are in a general area, and as long as we are in a general area the minister would be permitted to go off on his tangents. Now we are on very specific line items, and I asked a very specific question on a very specific line item. I would appreciate if you would rule on this particular matter in order that we might have--I think we have been going relatively well until the minister sort of slipped off that path again. I would appreciate if you could perhaps consider this matter and consider the fact that the minister's resuscitation of history is not relevant to the question about status, the present status of the Home Care equipment depot and the future, which was the question.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Is the Minister of Health being responsive to the point of order that is being raised?

Mr. McCrae: On the point of order, I did respond by saying to the honourable member that the depot, it is expected that its operation will remain the same. There are no immediate plans to change that. I made reference to the gossip and the untruths that are floating around out there and how unions make up stories when there is nothing else to use. I thought I was being responsive. It is true, I did go into a discussion of the support for the program because I thought that was part of the member's question. If it was not, and I am wrong about that, then I will cease and desist.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Thank you very much, Mr. Minister. The Chair would find that the honourable member for Kildonan does have a point of order, and I believe that the point of order has been addressed.

I would urge all members here to be responsive to the questions and not enter into dialogue, and I would ask the honourable member for Kildonan to please proceed with his question.

* * *

Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the minister could just briefly or even expansively if he wishes give us an outline of how the Home Care equipment depot and supply portion of the department presently functions. What are its major areas of involvement?

The minister has indicated he does not see a change in the foreseeable future. I appreciate that comment. I just would not mind a general analysis or discussion or comments from the minister about the present functioning, where major emphasis and priorities exist.

Mr. McCrae: The depot provides supplies and equipment to the ongoing operation of the program in home in addition to eligible clients who can come in and access equipment and supplies themselves. It is available that way, too. Those people gain their eligibility for supplies and equipment through the case co-ordination function. I think that is how it works.

Mr. Chomiak: Would the minister be prepared to provide us with the outline from the standards manual as to the application of whom and at what level and how people become eligible to take advantage of the program?

Mr. McCrae: The requirement for equipment or supplies is something that is ascertained through an assessment process. First the client is referred to the program by the doctor. Then the program makes assessments based on the needs of the patient. That is the standard, the need of the patient for certain supplies or equipment. That need is assessed by the case co-ordinator, and that case is referred by the physician to the program through the co-ordinator and, if the client is dissatisfied with the outcome, the Home Care Appeal Panel is there for the client to access to have the matter in dispute resolved.

I put some incorrect information on the record a few minutes ago which I would like to correct, Mr. Chairman. I said there were 50 or 53 self-managers. There are 43 self-managers receiving funding, 39 in Winnipeg, two in Interlake, one in Westman and one in Central.

Mr. Chomiak: Has the user fee that applies to home care equipment and supplies changed since its introduction in 1992-93?

Mr. McCrae: No.

Mr. Chomiak: Is the government contemplating this fiscal year or perhaps next any change in that fee?

Mr. McCrae: No.

Mr. Chomiak: The Estimates book indicates 25,000 people will receive home care equipment and supplies this year. Last year's Estimates book indicated 20,000 Manitobans. I wonder if the minister can specifically outline for me where they anticipate this increase.

Mr. McCrae: The heightening acuity of the condition of our Home Care clients coming into the program is what has been looked at in the preparation of these Estimates, and it is the projection of the department that there will be that kind of additional requirement for supplies and equipment.

Mr. Chomiak: Is the determination on heightened acuity based on any specific data or information, and, if so, can the minister elaborate perhaps a little more on that particular figure?

* (1610)

Mr. McCrae: We expect in this coming year an acceleration of earlier discharges from hospital and shorter lengths of stay, which is one of the main things that tells us that we are going to have higher requirements for supplies and equipment because, as I said in my last answer, the acuity of the condition of our clients is going to be heightened in the coming year and in the years ahead.

Mr. Chomiak: Is the government anticipating any change in the volume purchase of equipment and supplies that is done for the home care equipment and supplies from what has been done previously?

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. McCrae: The Estimates we are examining reflect the department's best projections of the different type of practice that will be in effect. That will call on less hospitalization, more home care, which will require higher levels of nursing services as well as other services, which includes the provision of supplies and equipment.

Mr. Chomiak: I probably did not phrase my last question appropriately, but the present purchasing system that is in place with respect to home care equipment and supplies, is the government contemplating any change in that process?

Mr. McCrae: Anything we can do administratively to streamline the costs of the acquisition of supplies and equipment for our clients we will look at on an ongoing basis.

If there are changes in the marketplace that allow for us to take advantage of better volume opportunities, if longer contracts with suppliers help us achieve more cost efficiency for our clients, then we will look at those. So it is hard for me to say that next month or six months down the road there will be some major change or minor change. If it has to do with obtaining the supplies we need at the best price possible, then that is what we are going to do.

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for that response, and I will just be a little more specific then and use an example. The minister is familiar with a proposal, not accepted, concerning the purchase of ostomy supplies utilizing the Pharmaceutical Association.

Are there any other projects like this either in the works or contemplated by the government with respect to volume purchase?

Mr. McCrae: No.

Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if it would be possible for us to get a specific update on the status of the seven S.T.E.P. projects?

Mr. McCrae: All Winnipeg acute care hospitals and Brandon General Hospital have developed S.T.E.P. projects. Each hospital's project is unique and targeted at specific patients that utilize emergency services. The duration for all projects, except for Victoria General and St. Boniface, is 18 months. The anticipated length of the Victoria General Hospital project is 36 months, and St. Boniface General Hospital, 24 months. The Concordia Hospital began its project in June 1994 and is now completed; the other hospitals began their projects on January 1, 1995, and are in various stages of implementation.

That is as much as I can give the honourable member at this time. When further information is available, he might ask, and I will provide him with whatever information that I can.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for the specific update on the S.T.E.P. projects.

Can the minister outline for us specifically who in the department are going to be monitoring, evaluating the private agency contracts for home care service delivery? Which branch and which individuals are going to be doing that evaluation and monitoring?

* (1620)

Mr. McCrae: We will have a careful evaluation done of the performance of those parts of the program which will work under a competitive regime. We will want to measure our performance against the performance reported on in the Price Waterhouse report, which is the system that members want us to go back to. It is very much going to be compared with the present system by people within the Community and Mental Health Division of the Health department. This will very much be part of that evaluation. I want improvements. By reading the Price Waterhouse report and other reports, but certainly the Price Waterhouse report, which goes back ten years, as has been pointed out by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), we need to do some improving. Some people do not think that we do need to, so I look forward very much to reporting on significant improvements a year from now or two years from now or whenever the appropriate reporting timetable comes along. So it will be the division of Community and Mental Health Services that will be involved with the evaluation of the projects.

Mr. Chomiak: Is there a specific branch or portion of the program or people seconded or any kind of a team that has been put together to do this?

Mr. McCrae: I do not propose to ask anyone who already has a philosophical bias to take part in the evaluation.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I take it from the minister's response that he is not going to answer my specific question.

Mr. McCrae: What was that?

Mr. Chomiak: I take it from your response that you are not going to answer my specific question.

Mr. McCrae: What is it?

Mr. Chomiak: The question was, is there a team or any group of individuals specifically assigned from the department to undertake this evaluation and review?

Mr. McCrae: We are in a strike right now. There is nothing to evaluate unless the member wants us to evaluate the performance of the contingency plan, and we are doing that daily at the highest levels of the department. I personally am involved in ensuring that our program is operating as best it can under all the circumstances.

We certainly want better service levels than we have right now during the strike, and that certainly is not any kind of comment about the people who are assisting us to get through while the union bosses force people to stay away from their clients, but when the time for evaluating the system is there, well, then, we will have a team for that purpose.

I do not have that for the honourable member today. It is not like I have it and I am not telling him. I just do not have it. All I know is that it is bound to be better than it is today and bound to be better than what the Price Waterhouse and all the other reports tell us are the shortcomings in our program. You cannot have all those shortcomings and then ask us to go back to what we had in the first place. I mean, it would be irresponsible for me to do that, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, in the Treasury Board document dated December 16, '95, it was indicated that $150,000 would be set up for an agency to deal with privatization in 1995-96, and a further $150,000 would be appropriated this budgetary year to deal with the home care privatization scheme. Has the minister allocated those monies from this budget to deal with that particular agency?

Mr. McCrae: The allocations are as I set out for the honourable member already and for the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), and we are not privatizing home care.

It is the wrong word, Mr. Chairman. It is a favourite, but it is the wrong one, not that I have anything against privatizing. It just happens to be more of what we have been doing for 20 years. It is okay to privatize when it is under the New Democrats and their union boss friends, but it is a different matter when the government of the day brings forward the element of competition.

There are some people who are, frankly, afraid to have their work put up to scrutiny, and the union bosses are those people. I mean, Daryl Bean and the whole bunch of them, you know, they threaten and intimidate people by drowning and hanging and stuff like that, and then they turn around and say, oh, but privatizing is really bad. Drowning and hanging is right for grandmothers, but--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.

Point of Order

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I think there was a previous ruling about the minister being not relevant to a specific question. I again raise the same point of order. This specific question was in relation to $150,000 appropriated last budgetary year and this budgetary year to a Crown agency dealing with the privatization of home care. The minister has slipped off to a completely irrelevant issue, and I again stress, when we were on the general line expenditures and we asked questions, you allowed a fair amount of latitude to the minister, and your invocation to us was that when we moved to the specific line items we would be more on point and more relevant.

My question to the minister was very specific, and the minister can choose to answer yes or no or not answer the question according to our rules, but the tangent we are off on again, I suggest, is completely irrelevant.

Mr. McCrae: Simply that I would appreciate the honourable member bringing me to order. I am sure I needed to be brought to order.

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for that. I would like to say that the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) did have a point of order, and I thank the honourable minister for recognizing that.

I would also ask honourable members to choose their words carefully. I will not refer to any of the words that are being used, but I would ask members to choose their words carefully. It does not add to the decorum, and we have been moving along quite smoothly.

* * *

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, to conclude his statement.

Mr. McCrae: No.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, has the government allocated specific monies toward the--and I will use the minister's words--move to competition in respect of these budgetary Estimates, and if so, how much in order to accommodate this move?

Mr. McCrae: Home care service delivery will continue to be provided out of appropriations for home care service delivery.

Mr. Chomiak: Is the minister saying that he cannot isolate and specify which monies are going to be allocated toward that project or that he is unwilling to provide us with the details about which monies are allocated to that project?

Mr. McCrae: No.

* (1630)

Mr. Chomiak: So I take it from the minister's response that he is unable to identify those specific sums. Just for clarification, has the government allocated any sum of money to the establishment of or the continuing work of the agency referred to in the Treasury Board document as the central co-ordinating body for the government scheme?

Mr. McCrae: I and the honourable member will look in vain for a line that identifies that expenditure. We have $90 million or $91 million for Home Care. In general we have clients to serve and a program to run. As changes happen, monies will be allocated from within that Home Care budget, overall global Home Care budget, to make the adjustments in administration or service delivery that will be happening this coming year.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that response. I just want to draw to the minister's attention and ask him to comment on this then perhaps, on the Treasury Board document dated December 16, 95, and I quote, initiate expenditure towards start-up cost of this new company to a maximum of $150,000 in each of 1995-96 and '96-97 against Appropriation 21 sub 7(d) Manitoba Health Services innovation fund. Can the minister comment whether or not that item has been carried forward by the government?

Mr. McCrae: Nothing of the kind referred to by the honourable member has been initiated.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, so just for clarification, the minister is saying that no expenditure has gone towards the start-up cost of this new agency or a company either last fiscal year or this fiscal year.

Mr. McCrae: That is right.

Mr. Chairman, it is usually about this time of the day that my friend the member for Kildonan suggests that for the benefit of staff that we have a five-minute break, and I know that it is his preoccupation with wanting to get answers to these very important questions and maybe a little discomfort in his lower extremity that maybe caused him to forget to mention that today. But for his benefit, if nobody else's, maybe we should take that brief recess this afternoon.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will agree to that, and I will indicate for the record that I agree as well it is for our benefit as well as the staff. The reason I refer to staff generally is because we can often move about in this Chamber and staff have less flexibility than ourselves, although the minister has less flexibility than us in the opposition.

Mr. Chairperson: You got less than all of us. Five minutes for recess.

The committee recessed at 4:33 p.m.

________

After Recess

The committee resumed at 4:43 p.m.

Mr. Chairperson: The committee will come to order.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, I have a question relating to home care services. It was drawn to my attention by a constituent of mine living in the community of Transcona. It is relating to the service, the individual, I think, because she has sent me a copy of her letter which I believe had been sent to the Premier.

It related to the situation that she is encountering in her home. It is a very serious situation. She is 75 years old. She is currently bedridden 24 hours a day with disc problems in her back. She also has serious leg problems that require special stockings to assist her with circulation in her legs and lower extremities.

The individual, since she is bedridden, had been receiving some home care service before for both her and her husband. Her husband had encountered some difficulties with his lungs and had to undergo some lung surgery a few months back. Of course, he is only in the recovery phase right now, so he is unable to assist her with her needs within the home, whether it be the home cleaning, et cetera, meal preparation, and also dealing with the medical and orderly functions that would be necessary to assist my constituent.

She has advised me, because after receiving the letter I have spoken with her and gone to her home to see personally the situation that she is living with, she had fallen in her home while walking with her cane and had to be rushed to the hospital. That is why she is now bedridden with the disc problem in her back.

What she has explained to me, and I believe she has also outlined this for the Premier's attention as well, is that during this time, where there is an interruption in home care services, the firm Olsten has been providing services to her.

Perhaps the minister--and I have several questions dealing with Olsten and the level of service, but I would like to start off by asking the minister if he can provide some information relating to the firm Olsten. Is that a local firm within the city or the province of Manitoba? What is the history of that firm? What level of support are they supposed to provide? Is it only to the community of Transcona or is it to other portions of the province as well? What is the history with Olsten?

Mr. McCrae: If at this time it would not be necessary for us to contract with companies such as the Olsten company--because the MGEU has withdrawn services so that under all the circumstances it is quite unnecessary at this time. However, I do not know an awful lot about the company. I understand that it has subsidiaries or franchise operations in various other places, including outside Manitoba. I do not know if it is a Manitoba company, but it is under contract presently to assist us during the labour disruption. If the MGEU wanted the work, why would they walk away from it?

Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, I am not satisfied with that answer that I heard from the minister here. It does not explain the background or the involvement with Olsten within the province of Manitoba. Maybe the minister can confirm for me that Olsten is indeed a firm from the United States. Does he have that information available?

Mr. McCrae: I do not know. Maybe the honourable member should ask Olsten.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister--because I am not clear on whether or not Olsten is the only firm that is providing that level of support service for home care clients in the community of Transcona. Are there other firms that are also providing support services in the home care area? Can the minister table any kind of list of all the companies that we currently have providing that service in Manitoba?

Mr. McCrae: I do not know if I can comply. I know that there are a number of for-profit companies that the union has invited to take part in the delivery of health services in Winnipeg, and throughout Manitoba, for that matter. They do not care where they are from or whether they can provide good services or not good services. So the union does not care; I do. We want to ensure that our clients get the best care that we can give them. It is unfortunate that there is a labour disruption, but I do not know precisely what the member was asking.

Mr. Reid: A list of the firms. Are there other firms?

* (1650)

Mr. McCrae: Yes, I wonder if the honourable member could place on the record his reason for wanting to know who is providing the service.

Mr. Reid: In response to the minister's request, I think it is only fair to those of us who are representing various communities throughout Manitoba and in the concerns of our constituents that are brought to our attention, particularly the one I just raised here with the minister a few moments ago with the firm Olsten, which I was not aware of, and that I believe that we all as taxpayers in this province are probably paying for those services--I need to know because if I get other calls from constituents in my communities saying that I have a level of service provided from some other company, which may be unknown to me as well, I would like to have some idea on how many firms there are operating in the province of Manitoba.

Are they operating in every community, and what level of service are they providing? That is why I have asked for the list of companies.

Mr. McCrae: It would be appropriate, more desirable at the present time at least for the MGEU to be providing services through its membership for those people who require essential services. There are a variety of people who are providing the services right now, including volunteers, which raises issues about training. We are trying to ensure that those who are providing

the services that are being provided are appropriately qualified to do so. It is hard to do when those who are qualified to do so abandon their clients, so with that abandonment in place, supported by the honourable member, it is passing strange to me why he should show any interest whatever in the clients of the Home Care program.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, I will put the name of the family on record for Hansard, and I will spell it for them: Mrs. D-e-M-a-r-c-h-i, living in the community of Transcona, with her husband, in their own home, in their mid-70s. Mrs. DeMarchi is bedridden 24 hours a day, requires a level of care to support and sustain her in her own home versus being sent to an institution, a hospital.

The hospital, when she was rushed there after her fall, sent her home after a few days and told her, as was explained in the letter to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), that there was no room for her in the hospital, and that is why they sent her home, but there is no level of support there for her other than the Olsten firm that has been sent to the home. I want to make this very clear for the minister's information that the Olsten people who were sent to the home were essentially untrained in that they created very much a disruption within the home, which caused some distress for these people. Not only were there new strangers in the home, but there were also disruptions in the activities that were performed there. The people coming to the home on behalf of Olsten as employees told Mrs. DeMarchi that they could only spend 15 minutes providing support for her, which would include bathing and changing her and the bed linens and to deal with the application of the stocking that was necessary, probably for lifesaving, because there was a potential for blood clots being involved here.

This is a very serious matter, and that is why I have raised it with the minister. I want to make sure that he is aware of it, and I also want to be aware, so that when other people in my community like Mrs. DeMarchi come to me with concerns like this and there are firms involved that I know nothing about because the service had been provided out of the Transcona community health office for a number of years. Olsten is now the firm providing it. Are they providing it for the whole community? Are there other firms in the province of Manitoba that are providing this to the people in my community?

I would like to know the list of those firms that are there, so that I can respond to the people, saying, yes, this is a legitimate firm; or, no, this is a bogus firm; this is somebody else; it is not working under the auspices of the Department of Health.

Mr. McCrae: It sounds to me like the client to whom the honourable member refers is functionally dependent on home care services. I will direct my department to make inquiries and to find out if this particular client is getting the care that she needs on an essential services basis.

I hope the honourable member will table for us today any communication between himself--

An Honourable Member: We have gone already through the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) Office, but I can get you another copy.

Mr. McCrae: No, no, communication between himself and the union on this matter. It is not the government that abandoned this client. It was his friends in the MGEU who abandoned this client, so would the honourable member please table his communications with the union, setting out his concern with their course of action?

Mr. Reid: If the minister wants information, I can provide that for him with respect to the letter that was sent to the Premier, because a copy was also sent to me, but I would refer the minister to his own Premier to give him and his staff the opportunity to see the information that I believe was provided by Mrs. DeMarchi.

If the minister wants, I will provide the address and the phone number for his department staff as well, to allow his staff the opportunity to make sure that the needs are met and that it is not just a level of service that is below the requirement for the individual who is being impacted by what I consider to be a substandard level of performance by the company, Olsten.

Fifteen minutes is not adequate to perform the tasks that are necessary to sustain Mrs. DeMarchi in her own home and to relieve the pressure from her husband having to provide that level of service that should have been provided by the Olsten company staff. If the minister wants that information, I would be pleased to provide that for him to assist Mr. and Mrs. DeMarchi in their concerns.

Mr. McCrae: We have enough information to follow up on any concerns that have been raised, and, indeed, we have already done so or will, indeed, immediately be following up on this matter, but I ask the honourable member to table his correspondence with Peter Olfert about this. Where is it? Where is the concern? Where is the real concern, Mr. Chairman? It does not exist.

I ask this rhetorically because I know the honourable member is simply standing in his place in this committee to do the bidding of his labour union friends.

Mr. Reid: Well, if the minister says, and he just said here a moment ago, Mr. Chairperson, it is a conflict of interest to represent one’s constituents, then I plead guilty to that because my purpose here is to represent my constituents, and that is exactly what I am doing here.

At the same time, I asked the question a few moments ago relating to a list of companies that are providing home care services, and the minister has not answered that question at this time. I would like to ask that same question of the minister. Can he provide me with a list of companies like Olsten, which would obviously include Olsten because that is the one I know about that is operating within the community of Transcona in some form? Are there other companies? Who are they, and what level of services are they providing?

Mr. McCrae: I understand the Manitoba Telephone System, a paragon of public utilities, Mr. Chairman, has a publication called the yellow pages. If the honourable member wants to have a listing of health care companies, he could peruse the yellow pages, perhaps find out some information that way. For him to stand here in his place and suggest that he is only rising because he is concerned about a client of our home care system, in view of his performance and that of his colleagues, I am not buying it.

Point of Order

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I have listened very patiently and very regularly to what the minister has had to say the last several questions. The minister has not only refused to answer the question, a very specific question, I might add, which the minister has the option not to answer but our rules indicate the minister does not have to go off to irrelevancy, but secondly and more important, again the minister is accusing members of this side of the House of ulterior motives or improper motives which I think are not appropriate for the minister to indicate. The minister does not have to answer the question if he does not want to, but to accuse members of this side of this House or any members of some ulterior motive, I think, is inappropriate.

* (1700)

Mr. McCrae: On the same point of order, I assume that the Chairman wants to hear from me because, in the courtroom, I know that when the judge says I do not need to hear from you, it usually means that the judge is about to rule in your favour, and I have not heard you say that, so I guess I have to rise to defend myself again. I know I am not doing very well on the battle for who is winning the most points of order. I realize that some of my command of the parliamentary practices is somewhat lacking sometimes, and it shows in the record of rulings that has characterized these Estimates.

Mr. Chairman, I guess I do not want to do anything that is not parliamentary. I mean, I do not want to do that because I have been kicked out of this place once, and it was not one of my more stellar performances, not something that I--

An Honourable Member: I read about that.

Mr. McCrae: Even my colleague the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) has heard about that, and it happened long before he even got here. It is not one of those things that I want to share with my grandchildren on a daily basis when and if I ever have any. So, therefore, I do not want to do anything unparliamentary.

But, you know, the honourable member for Transcona raises an issue, and he is saying that he is concerned about a client in his constituency. I guess, if you strip everything else away, we are all human beings, and we all do care about someone who is in a position of need, but my point--and the honourable member understands my point. He says it is my fault; I say it is his fault. It comes down to that. If, in the process of doing that, I have impugned somebody’s motives inappropriately, I would want to disassociate myself from that and withdraw such a thing.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member did have a point of order. The honourable minister has retracted his statement. The issue has been concluded.

* * *

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for his withdrawal.

I would like to follow up and ask the minister. Insofar as we are paying for the services of a number of agencies to provide home care services in the province of Manitoba and insofar as we have gone through some specific expenditure items in relation to home care expenditures. I do not see why the minister is reluctant to provide us with a list of those companies that are presently providing home care services, be they profit or nonprofit, in the province of Manitoba, particularly because it is our duty to scrutinize expenditures, and we are spending public tax dollars on the provision of these services.

So I am asking the minister, will he provide us with a list of these companies?

Mr. McCrae: It may be at some point in the future, after this strike is but a memory, that I might be in a position to share that kind of information. Right now we are in a situation where unions are, well, just saying the darndest things--let us just leave it at that--and just doing the darndest things, Mr. Chairman, and maybe we should just leave it at that, too. At some point, I hope to be able to share whatever appropriate information I can share with the honourable member, because I do believe that we are talking about the expenditure of public funds. Honourable members, as members of this place, should ask these kinds of questions, but not at a time when we are in a labour dispute, when we know whose side of that dispute honourable members are on very clearly because you see them on picket lines.

Of course, I should not talk; I was on a picket line on Saturday. I walked around in front of my constituency office with my fellow citizens of Brandon and the surrounding area who were making their presence known on Saturday. A number of them have been to my office on a few occasions in the last few weeks. A large contingent of professors from Brandon University were part of that picket line. Interesting development that our social activists who are part of the Brandon University establishment should take such a burning interest in the clients of home care in our province. Nonetheless, these people are my fellow citizens, and they are entitled to occupy space in front of my constituency office and, on a Saturday morning, make all the noise they like. That was the kind of morning it was. I arrived at the office just shortly after 10. I had a--

Point of Order

Mr. Chomiak: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I am sure the minister had a very pleasant Saturday, and I am very happy that he did, but by no stretch of the imagination is there any relationship to the question that I specifically asked about providing a list of companies who are providing private home care service and the minister's response.

I know the minister is very proud of his actions, but I do not think it is relevant to the issue, even remotely, at hand.

Mr. McCrae: I will take the honourable member's request under advisement.

Mr. Chairperson: On the honourable member's point of order, I happened to miss what the honourable minister was saying at the time. I was just distracted for a minute, so I guess I will have to take it under advisement and get back to the House.

* * *

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, to conclude.

Mr. McCrae: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. I am so pleased to engage briefly in conversation with the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) who has been learning about the health system in the People's Republic of China as well as other systems recently that I failed to take note of the ruling. I am not sure if I was--

Mr. Chairperson: I took it under advisement.

Mr. McCrae: Ah, I understand that your honour has taken this under advisement. That being the case, then I am sure the member for Kildonan would be interested in my experience on Saturday morning, because it is directly related to this point. I wish to share this experience. I was meeting that morning. I had a meeting scheduled with a private home care company owner in my office, one that the honourable member referred to recently in this House as being opposed to what the government is doing in this area.

I also had an appointment with one of the local media, although it is not so local when you think about MTN. It is the only province-wide television network in Manitoba, and I had an opportunity to speak with Linda Crawford, who is a reporter for the PULSE News.

Point of Order

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, on a point of order, I am sure the minister is very anxious to let us know how busy he was on Saturday and what his activities entailed, but there was a very specific question asked on a very specific home care item, and I would ask you to call the minister to order with respect to relevancy in relation to that particular question.

I noticed the minister attempted to bring in some point of relevancy by virtue of indicating that one of the people he met was from a private company. That is fine and dandy, Mr. Chairperson, but it bears no resemblance to the very specific question that was specifically framed asking for a list of private companies that the government is providing a service to in contracting out.

Mr. McCrae: On the same point, I think I will just give the honourable member the point of order and say I have answered the question.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member has a point of order when it comes toward relevancy. The minister does, though, have the option of not answering the question if he so chooses, and if the minister chooses to say he has answered the question, that is his prerogative.

* * *

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, the minister will have to excuse me. The last time I had asked him a question, I had to duck out just for a few minutes, but I did stand and listen in terms of--

Point of Order

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member for Inkster is obviously making a comment about the presence or absence of members in this Chamber, including himself, and that is out of order. Check out your Beauchesne there, Mr. Chairman, and you will find that in there.

* (1710)

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster, on the same point of order.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, in defence of myself, I should not have said that I was outside of the Chamber in the pay booth there, not the pay booth, the phone message room, but I was listening, and I was wanting to do a follow-up question, so my apologies.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister did have a point of order, but the honourable member has apologized.

* * *

Mr. Lamoureux: In listening to what the minister's response was, I did not detect if the minister was prepared to make some sort of a commitment regarding a workshop or providing some form of a workshop dealing with home care services being provided in a nonprofit fashion.

I am personally thinking and on behalf of the party that what is necessary is that the minister provide some form of a workshop, a formal workshop, to allow for nonprofit groups to become better acquainted with what the core services are, the types of things which would be expected of them, how services could, in fact, be delivered. It could be a wide spectrum. I would envision somewhat of a day, two-day workshop with the idea of educating those who would have the skills and abilities to be able to provide this particular service.

Would the minister be prepared to make a commitment to that degree?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, in response to the honourable member, let me take this opportunity to congratulate the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses for the initiative they took last week in putting on a workshop to discuss with members of the nursing profession the opportunities that lay ahead with respect to home care services in Manitoba. I know they billed it as a nonprofit symposium or workshop or whatever you want to call it, but I understand that a lot of nursing professionals attended simply for the purpose of, I guess, bringing themselves up to speed with respect to home care services whether they be profit, nonprofit or whatever other kind there might be. So hats off to the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses. I understand that it was well attended, lots of interest was generated. I am very pleased about that. In fact, I am pleased to see so many people so pleased about the opportunities that are ahead, and the ultimate beneficiary, of course, would be the client of the home care system.

I am interested in the honourable member's question because there are indications that MARN may indeed do such a thing again, because of the subscription rate to this latest workshop that was conducted. They had the good sense, I suggest, to invite the assistant deputy minister for Community and Mental Health Services to be present and to participate in that workshop. One thing you can say about nurses and that is that they are quite prepared to enable the future as opposed to fight the future.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I would concur with the minister to the degree in which MARN should be applauded for the actions that they have taken, but in no way should the minister try to imply in any fashion that this is some form of endorsation of what the government is doing with the privatization for the--

Point of Order

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member for Inkster, Mr. Chairman, is attributing to me implications that I might be engaged in, and I would not dare speak for the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, or imply any such intent as the honourable member might be suggesting. So, really and truly, MARN is clear. They do not support what is happening with respect to our home care initiative, but at least they are being realistic and saying we do not support that particular aspect of home care delivery, but if it is going to happen anyway why not put the client first? That is what MARN is doing, and I do have to ask the honourable member not to imply that I would imply that they would somehow support what we are doing--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

* * *

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the Minister of Health clarifying the point in terms of exactly what I was trying to get across.

To pick up on that, MARN initially had, I believe it was something like 30 spots and then they had it extended because of the overwhelming response. It was then extended to, I believe, 100 spots, and I do not know if they even extended it beyond that. But what it has demonstrated that even with the decision that is being made from this government that there is a very high level of interest at trying to resolve this issue in the best way that is possible. That is the reason why even the Liberal Party has said, look, we want the 12-month moratorium. In between that there are things in which the Minister of Health can do to alleviate a lot of the concerns that are being expressed both by the clients and home care workers and so forth. What that workshop demonstrated that MARN put on is that there is a high level of interest, but there is a high level of interest outside of the nurses in themselves, and that is the reason why I talked earlier about the community clinics. There are other nonprofit organizations such as the Victorian Order of Nurses. There might be an overwhelming response to a government initiative in which they had a workshop in which the different groups were invited to be able to participate in. Ultimately, I would say, what does the Minister of Health have to lose?

I could see potentially some fear. I could see ultimately what he might fear. He might fear that there could be such a level of interest that he might have to start backtracking on the private for-profit. I could see potentially that occurring, but he should not fear that. What he should have is some--if he is going to go ahead with the privatization, provide information, workshops; allow for potential nonprofit organizations to become better acquainted with the home care services and how they are being delivered and the role that they could potentially play.

The best example that I can give, in essence, I believe, is with the community health clinics that I referred to earlier. It seems to me to be a better way to have a Nor'West, if you like, providing home care services as opposed to a We Care because the priorities and objectives are completely different. It seems to be more of an extension of the services that many of the community clinics would offer.

So what does the minister have to lose? That would be the question to the Minister of Health. Why would the minister not provide a workshop to allow interested groups, particularly nonprofit or otherwise, to be able to become better informed in terms of what the government is doing and how they might play a role? Why would he not want to do this?

Mr. McCrae: It is Billy Crystal who says, do not get me started. But now that the honourable member has done it, workshops, my goodness, we have to have consulted more than 15,000 people in Manitoba over the last four or five years in health reform. Everybody knows a key ingredient of a successful reform is the Home Care program. I mean, does the honourable member think we are so ideological and hidebound as to proceed with changes that are simply to our liking and have nothing to do with any input from anybody else? Is he serious about that? Mr. Chairman, 15,000 Manitobans have been consulted. I mean, that does not even count all the petitioners who have signed petitions for Seven Oaks Hospital or Concordia Hospital or Misericordia Hospital or home care or, I do not know what all, Pharmacare, all the cares.

* (1720)

We got all of these people consulting us in one way or another. So you see what happens when you take a position and you think that it is a good position, it is a popular one, some people support us in this position, as long as the government disagrees with us, let us put across the idea, oh, they have not consulted enough; or, if that one does not work, when the minister says, we have consulted thousands, and that does not work for us, then we can start the next phase of the operation: yes, maybe you did consult, but you did not listen. Now, that is the next phase. I expect it to come up next.

The fact is, we listened to everybody. Not everybody agrees. So what do you do? Oh, leadership comes into the picture at some point. Oh, you would not want to practice leadership. That would be far too courageous. You cannot do things like that in a system where you are not supposed to do anything and then--[interjection]

What I am getting at, Mr. Chairman, is that the people elected this government in 1988 to give the people of Manitoba a respite from the horrible New Democrat years, and then in 1990 the people re-elected this government because they felt that we were capable of and had already done the kind of job they wanted to see continued. And 1995 came along and people said, you know, this is a government that has demonstrated it can do a job, it can provide leadership when that is needed rather than licking the finger and finding out which direction the wind is going in and find out where the loudest voices are shouting.

That is the kind of approach that has characterized pretty well every outpouring from especially the Liberal Party; the New Democrats, at least you can count on them to remain somewhat true to their philosophy, which, whether or not I agree with it, at least I respect that in the New Democrats that they do believe what they believe and they go forward with it. So sometimes we have pretty rancorous debates about all that, but for me it is never a personal matter because they believe what they believe and I respect people who believe what they believe.

But the finger-in-the-wind business is the part that I have always had trouble with, and coming from Sharon Carstairs, now Senator Sharon Carstairs who does not believe in the Senate--[interjection] Right. She is the one who wanted the triple-A Senate, I recall. Abolish, abolish, abolish. Oh, have you got an appointment for me? Okay.

That sort of approach characterizes the Liberals today, and I am frankly having trouble with it. I thought the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) would break out of that kind of a mould and bring some real--something back to the Liberal Party that people could believe in. What I am hearing from the honourable member for Inkster is a wishy-washy approach.

He is not quite so wishy-washy on the Seven Oaks Hospital. He knows what he wants there, just do not do anything. You know, do not do anything that will upset my area, but on this home care business he has got himself in the same trap that Paul Edwards put the Liberals in over the issue of final offer selection. Again, I caution the member for Inkster, and I know he will not take my advice, but it is fun to give it to him anyway: Be careful. When you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. In his efforts to snuggle up to the union bosses, he forgets that fusion that exists between our colleagues, the bionic fusion that exists between the NDP--bionic? it is the wrong word--organic fusion that exists between the NDP and the unions does not exist between the Liberals and the unions and is not going to exist. Why does the honourable member for Inkster not know that the closer he gets to those unions the more likely he is to get double-crossed again, as they have in the past.

That being said, the honourable member keeps looking in it, and the only word I can remember to use in this one is, wishy-washy. There is no particular substance to the position being taken by the honourable member for Inkster. If there was some substance, it would be more apparent.

So take a position after careful study of the issues and go with it, but there is no middle ground here. The honourable member wants special treatment for nonprofits. Heck, the NDP is not even asking for that. They are just saying do it nonprofit, never mind the special treatment. Give us the whole shot, the nonprofits, and as long as they are represented by our union boss friends they are the ones that should get the business. We know that. I mean, it is understandable. It is not hard to figure out where they are coming from, and I respect it. I do not agree with it, but I respect it. Unless the honourable member finds something he can agree with and he measures that on the old finger-in-the-wind system, if when he finds someone who can agree with his approach, that will be really good for him because he needs that kind of a constituency, but the point is to keep this wishy-washy approach of, have you tried this, have you tried that, without ever really taking a position of your own. Why does he not do that and then we can have a proper debate about things.

It is true, he suggested things like including the community health centres. They are not excluded. Include organizations like maybe the Grey Nuns, for example. Maybe the Grey Nuns would like to get interested in it. They sure have proved they know how to help out over the years, so why not? Why not the MGEU itself? Nobody is excluding the MGEU. Why do not they prove that they can be competitive instead of admitting they cannot be competitive by staying out on the picket lines? Why do they not get with the program, the program being, let us work together. Let us lock arms. Let us get together and provide service to our clients. Why do they dismiss our offer, the opportunity to continue to take part in home care as a union?

They can set up their own. This is the place for unions in the '90s, instead of just being the nattering nabobs of negativism that they have been in the past, why do they not become a positive force in the future of health care delivery in our province by linking arms with us, putting in bids like others are being asked to do, winning contracts on the basis of their ability to deliver in an efficient way, or is this strike all about an admission of failure on the part of the MGEU? They are simply not competitive. Is that what it is? If that is what it is, then they are going to get found out. That is what the people are going to conclude, and maybe they have already concluded that, because they still have not put the patient first, the client first.

Anybody who bids on a contract who cannot put the client first certainly is not going to get the business, which tells me that the unions should get right back to work right now, demonstrate its bona fides, get in there with the bidding process, tell us what they are going to do, how much it is going to cost, what we are going to get in return for it, and then we can continue to offer quality home care services for our clients, but I think the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is fighting a losing battle if he thinks he can use the wishy-washy approach to catch the imagination of the people of Manitoba.

Mr. Lamoureux: The question was, is the minister prepared to provide workshops for his nonprofit groups and let them and others participate so they can become better equipped to be able to make presentations for the open tendering process?

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5:30 p.m., committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

IN SESSION

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being 5:30 p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday).

Good night.