ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Health Sciences Centre
Budget Reduction
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the acting Premier.
Before the election, Madam Speaker, the government, based on questions we raised on numerous occasions, would not confirm any cuts to the Health Sciences Centre and reductions in staffing pursuant to the government cuts.
Madam Speaker, we have learned that the Health Sciences Centre has informed staff that they will have to implement a 7.5 percent reduction in their budget or a $19-million reduction in their budget effective April 1, 1996--bad news after the election campaign, completely inconsistent with government statements in this Chamber before.
I would like to ask the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) to confirm the reductions of 7.5 percent, $19 million, at the Health Sciences Centre.
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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, for this fiscal year, last November, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) met with representatives of the hospitals, personal care homes and community health centres to announce the level of funding for 1995-96. The honourable member would be quite incorrect to suggest that there was anything other than an early and open approach to the discussion of the various financial plans for the hospitals.
There is also no question but that the next fiscal year will be another challenging year for the health sector and the year after that and the year after that. As long as the federal government continues to turn the tap off on transfers for health care, we will be challenged. I say that in the context that we continue, Madam Speaker, to contribute 34 percent of our budget to health care, the highest level anywhere in this country.
Mr. Doer: I would like to table a letter in the Chamber today from a director of human resources at the Health Sciences Centre stating that effective April 1, 1996, we will be required to reduce our operating budget by $19 million or approximately 7.5 percent at the Health Sciences Centre.
Madam Speaker, this is a question we asked in December to the provincial government which they refused to answer, long before the federal budget.
I would like to ask the minister to confirm the number today, and will that be the target reduction for other hospitals in the province of Manitoba?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I will not immediately comment on a letter written from the Health Sciences Centre to somebody else, so I will look further into the letter the honourable member refers to, and I do not confirm that for the other hospitals, each of which work with their autonomous boards and work to serve their mandates.
As I said to the honourable member, all hospitals in Canada, except for the seven that have been shut down in Montreal, except for the 52 that have been shut down in Saskatchewan, except for the 10,000 hospital beds shut down in NDP Ontario, formerly NDP Ontario, all hospitals in Manitoba will be continuing to restructure, Madam Speaker, to continue to put emphasis on not-for-admission surgeries, day surgeries and to continue to look at the technologies that are available, many of which the honourable member might be interested to know also help patients to recover faster and to experience less intrusion with respect to surgical procedures.
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier who is also, allegedly, according to Order-in-Council, a member of the government's Treasury Board, how can this Conservative government, this provincial Conservative government, justify cutting $19 million out of the Health Sciences Centre after the election, when they have, according to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), ample funds available for the Winnipeg Jets, $37 million for the Winnipeg Jets?
How can he justify the priorities of this government to cut health care and subsidize hockey, Madam Speaker?
Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I do not know when the members opposite are going to realize what happened on April 25 of this year, when we went to the people of Manitoba, clearly indicating that this government was putting $500 million more in health care than was put in under his administration in 1988--$500 million more.
Madam Speaker, to put the debt on the people of Manitoba, as he did in spending money in Saudi Arabia, $27 million--absolute waste. This government is managing the affairs of health care very well.
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Health Care System
Child Psychiatric Services
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I have a new question to the Deputy Premier.
Of course, the Deputy Premier will confirm that all the way through the election campaign, the government had the audacity to promise to limit, to limit their contribution to the hockey arena and team at $10 million and cancel the operating loss agreement, words that fall like a house of cards in terms of the light of day after the election campaign.
I would like to ask the Deputy Premier, in light of his newfound commitment to the health care system of Manitoba, will they be keeping the beds at the children's psychiatric centre at the Health Sciences Centre open, the beds that they opened on March 23?
Will they be keeping the beds open?--because, already, as we have raised in the House day in and day out, children have been turned aside because the beds are scheduled to be closed by this Conservative government.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable Leader of the Opposition knows very well, and I believe supports, the mental health reform plans of the government and much of its implementation. He picks and chooses, of course, to meet his needs on occasion.
I would like to see those beds closed, because I would like not to have to need them. If there is an indication that they are needed, they will be there for us to use, Madam Speaker. The honourable member and I should probably agree on that point, but here again there is an opportunity for him, and he is not going to miss out on such an opportunity.
Madam Speaker, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) has very eloquently put forward an important matter. If it was not for that particular member, the Leader of the Opposition, when he sat on this side around the cabinet table, we might not have to put out $634 million in interest charges.
Madam Speaker, can you imagine how many hospital beds we could have open today, how many community programs we could have in effect today, if those honourable members and their friends in the union movement had not forced us to pay $634 million this year in interest charges?
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, again the minister has not answered the question. He did not answer the first two questions we raised with him. The Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) has not answered the question about the cuts at the Health Sciences Centre.
I want to ask the minister again. In light of the fact that two doctors at the Health Sciences Centre have stated that closing the psychiatric ward and not admitting young patients, some as young as four years old, Madam Speaker, will put those young people at risk, what impact will a further $19 million and a further 7.5 percent cut have on young children who need children's psychiatric service and are being turned away callously, because this government's priorities are hockey teams, not health care for children here in the province of Manitoba?
Mr. McCrae: This is the same type of rhetoric that I recall vividly experiencing for 35 days in a recent election campaign, most of it not true, but a lot of it high-powered rhetoric, aided and abetted financially by their union-boss friends in the buying of television time, using actors to try to put across what the honourable Leader of the Opposition is trying to put across today.
I have no interest whatsoever in subjecting a four-year-old to a lack of mental health services, Madam Speaker, and in our discussions and working relationships with Health Sciences Centre, I am not going to allow the kind of situation the honourable member and his actor friends in the union movement want to portray.
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Mr. Doer: Well, the minister did not answer the question again.
The ward is slated to close tomorrow. Children, right now, are not being admitted. Dr. Vickar and Dr. Steinberg have both said that children as young as four years old will be put at risk by the Conservative government, this Minister of Health's decision on this children's psychiatric unit at this Health Sciences Centre in this province of Manitoba.
Will the minister listen to the psychiatric experts who say that we need those beds for our children and keep those beds open for our young children, so that they can get needed psychiatric help at the earliest possible age, when it is most effective for those kids, or will he deny those children those opportunities and allow the closure of those beds to take place tomorrow, as scheduled by his government's decision?
Mr. McCrae: Of course, we will listen to those doctors, Madam Speaker, and we also--is the honourable member suggesting that we turn our backs on the Winnipeg Regional Mental Health Council that says close the beds? I mean, these are the kinds of different points of view that we get in the health system.
But, Madam Speaker, I am not going to allow children to go without service. I give the honourable member that commitment, and if that means having beds available to be open or if it means leaving beds open, that is what it means.
We have said consistently before the election to which the honourable member wants to refer, and we have said consistently after, patient care is the No. 1 priority.
Health Sciences Centre
Budget Reduction
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, the only thing consistent is that a number of beds opened before the election, and they are now slated to close, and waiting lists were reduced before the election, and now they are stopping those programs. It is pre-election rhetoric from this minister, and then they close it after the election.
My question for the minister: I find it extraordinary the minister is not prepared to answer the question about the $19-million cut to the Health Sciences Centre. Either the minister does not know what is going on in his department, or is the minister saying the Health Sciences Centre made up this figure of $19 million to reduce their own budget by $19 million?
Is that what the minister is saying by refusing to answer the question, that somehow they pulled this number out of the air, and it did not come from the Department of Health?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I think, Madam Speaker, the only area that I could learn any lessons from the honourable member and his Leader would be in the area of rhetoric. I may not be as good at rhetoric as they are, but I hope we can persuade and demonstrate to honourable members that when it comes to commitment to health care, we have certainly done a better job than they ever had dreamed of doing.
Their commitment to health care, as measured by the budget, was nowhere near what the present commitment to health care is in the budget of the government of Manitoba. Their commitment to health care, if you want to measure it in the amount they are prepared to send off to the bankers and the creditors of Manitoba, to the extent of $634 million this year and hundreds of millions of dollars every year, rather than spending them on areas where we could use them far more productively, I suggest that is an area I do not want to copy, Madam Speaker.
The letter the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) tabled spoke about how there will be a reduction of this amount and that percentage. It is all anticipated. The honourable members know very well, Madam Speaker, there is a long planning process in budgeting in hospitals, and there are targets that are looked at.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, given that the minister has confirmed that there is a $19-million reduction to Health Sciences Centre in anticipated targets, will the minister advise this House whether or not he will outline for the House what programs are being cut, since this memo talks about programs that must be cut by the Health Sciences Centre?
Will that include the cardiac waiting-list program, and will that include the psychiatric children's care program that is now being cut, Madam Speaker?
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Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the Health Sciences Centre has a budget of approximately $250 million. They have hundreds of programs in operation at their hospital, and they are like other hospitals in Canada, not like the 52 in Saskatchewan that got closed, not like the seven in Montreal that are getting closed. They do not have to worry about budgets there anymore.
The ones that are open in Manitoba, all of them, all have budget challenges year in and year out, and is it not interesting that, in the days when honourable members opposite were dealing with double-digit revenue increases year over year and still borrowing hundreds of millions of dollars, we had the same kinds of debates then, Madam Speaker?
Personal Care Homes
Safety Standards
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My final supplementary to the minister is in regard to the personal care homes report that he released this morning.
Can the minister explain how Manitobans, Madam Speaker, can have any confidence that the recommendations in the area of safety and personal staffing will be quickly dealt with as a result of this report, insofar as this matter was brought to the minister's attention a year ago?
He set up a committee. The committee reported before the election. The report has come out now after the election, and, now, finally, they have recommendations that will be worked on, not now, not next month, not until next year, Madam Speaker. How can we have any confidence that staffing and security are being dealt with?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member will not have confidence in any plans that we announce, but the confidence that I have rests in the consultation approach that we use, the fact that so many stakeholders were part of the consultations--professionals, care providers, recipients of care and their families and the consultations that happened as recently as yesterday with various organizations which expressed satisfaction with the report and the actions that the government intends to take.
Bell of Batoche
Theft
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, as an important historic object, indeed as a national treasure, the bell of Batoche must become accessible to all Metis, perhaps again at Batoche, and must be treated with the utmost of respect.
In the fundamental understanding that two wrongs do not make a right and that there must be a swift and legal return of this treasure to a rightful place, I ask the Minister of Justice, would she tell Manitobans when she or her department first received information as to the likely whereabouts of the bell of Batoche?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): In answering that question, I would like to answer a question taken as notice on my behalf yesterday.
Yesterday, on the question taken as notice, I was shocked and surprised that the honourable member for St. Johns raised the matter of a police investigation into the bell of Batoche.
This House has a history of respecting the integrity of a police investigation for these reasons; first of all, fairness. In the interests of fairness, we do not enter into public discussion on any of these issues because the people, in fact, may be innocent.
Secondly, not for a moment do I nor any member of this House want to interfere by way of discussion into a police investigation. However, I would note that the Winnipeg police have provided some comment in this matter. In these circumstances, I think it is important to provide the honourable member with some information on this situation for the purpose of dispelling any notion of impropriety on the part of our Crown attorneys in Manitoba.
Madam Speaker, I can confirm the police have contacted our Crown attorneys with respect to the bell. This is a normal part of the responsibilities of Crown attorneys in this province for the purpose of giving advice.
Madam Speaker, as this allegedly took place in Ontario, we have forwarded all materials, all materials, to the Ontario Attorney General's department.
Mr. Mackintosh: My supplementary, Madam Speaker: In the interests of fairness and in the interests of the people of Manitoba through its representatives in this House asking questions of public concern which she is well aware is our obligation under Beauchesne's, I ask this minister to explain why the Crown in Manitoba has not proceeded with charges or search warrants, and who is delaying the legal process, especially search warrants, which by now may be useless?
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Mrs. Vodrey: I am shocked again today by the member of the other side.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate."
We need no lectures from this minister either on the process of law or on the process of this House and I would ask that you call her to order and ask her to answer the questions put forward by the member for St. Johns.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. In my opinion, the honourable member for Thompson does not have a point of order. I was of the opinion that the minister was about to respond to the question posed by the honourable member for St. Johns.
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Mrs. Vodrey: As the member across the way knows, in a general sense and in all cases, the police have the opportunity to consult with our Crown attorneys, but it is the police who make a decision regarding the application for a search warrant which is, of course, granted by the judiciary.
Mr. Mackintosh: Well, has the Justice minister received a report from the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Praznik) about information that minister has in his possession, and has she demanded that the minister aid in the investigation by immediately reporting that information to the authorities?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, the member makes very strong allegations regarding a member of this House.
I have confirmed today that all materials in relation to this alleged incident have been forwarded to the Attorney General of Ontario. This is allegedly where the incident took place. Decisions will be made within the Province of Ontario.
St. Germain-Vermette
Secession
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs.
When asked to comment on the possibility of secession, of St. Germain and Vermette potentially seceding from the City of Winnipeg, the minister had suggested that secession is only a concern of those communities that are, in fact, contemplating it.
Given that the Minister of Urban Affairs is charged with the responsibility of protecting the interests of the City of Winnipeg, will he acknowledge that communities seceding have a tremendous impact on the entire city of Winnipeg?
Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, the member is referring to a situation that is in the preliminary stages of report finalization regarding the St. Germain-Vermette study.
I have not been presented with the final report or any recommendations on it. I cannot comment as to what their decisions are and what their recommendations are on that report.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Urban Affairs, does he not believe that if a part of the city of Winnipeg wants to secede, that it is going to have a dramatic impact on other communities in the city of Winnipeg? Will he at least acknowledge that that is, in fact, the case?
Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, the member for Inkster is asking a hypothetical question and to give an answer on what a certain area of the city would do or would not do, these are opinions that I cannot speculate on in a sense of any type of finality.
Mr. Lamoureux: Headingley is not hypothetical. Headingley--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question.
Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate whether any mechanism might be put into place to ensure that other communities within the city of Winnipeg which will be negatively affected in the event that the city starts to disintegrate, Madam Speaker, will have their voices heard in a process that is leading to secession?
Will he ensure that there is a mechanism that will allow other parts of the community of Winnipeg to have input?
Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, in doing research on prior ministers of Urban Affairs, I look sometimes back to them for the wisdom of decision making and some of the precedents that they have formed.
In regard to Headingley, I went back into the archives to look at what some of the former ministers of Urban Affairs had said. I would just like to quote, if Madam Speaker would give me a moment here, regarding a question that was posed to a former Urban Affairs minister.
He replied: We are going to study the issue regarding Headingley, whether they should or should not, and then what options they have as residents. They are going to have to decide themselves the benefits that they are not living with and the drawbacks. We are not going to do that for them. We are not going to tell them whether it is good or bad to stay there. That is their decision.
That is from the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) when he was the Minister of Urban Affairs.
For me to speculate at this time what decisions people are going to make, what the situations are going to be and the choices they are going to make, those are up to the people to make.
Bell of Batoche
Theft
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs.
Would the minister tell Manitobans where, at what function and when did he see the bell he told a scrum of reporters and myself about yesterday?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Affairs): Yes, Madam Speaker, I believe the Attorney General has spoken about the investigation.
As this House has been told, any investigation into a criminal act in Ontario is certainly being properly conducted by police and the appropriate authorities in respect to the Attorney General's department, and I believe, Madam Speaker, that the information I provided yesterday is certainly there on the record today.
Mr. Mackintosh: Would the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs tell Manitobans where, at what function and when did he see the bell he told a scrum of reporters and myself about yesterday, and, indeed, would he tell this House whether, in fact, he rang this bell or dealt with it in any way?
Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I say to the member, first of all, I have not rung the bell of Batoche. I do not even know if I have ever seen the bell of Batoche, as I have indicated. I do not know how large the bell of Batoche is or what is on the bell of Batoche. [interjection]
Well, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) says, there are a lot of events for bells. One of his colleagues had a bell in the House today. Am I supposed to go to the police and indicate that may be the bell of Batoche? That is a silly comment, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Mackintosh: I have a final supplementary.
After seeing the bell that the minister referred to yesterday, did the minister report the sighting to the police or to authorities?
Did he confer with government officials or any members of this government, rather than treat the Metis and the law with contempt by condoning and allowing this national treasure to remain in the hands of a very few under a legal cloud, Madam Speaker?
Point of Order
Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, the member for St. Johns has made allegations in this House now on two occasions, allegations that heretofore I have not seen any evidence for. If he has allegations to make, let him make them and let him prove that his allegations are correct, either that or withdraw.
It is not the purview of this House, Madam Speaker, to have a member raise questions or raise inferences or make accusations in this House that are unfounded. If he has evidence, let him table it. If he does not have evidence, let him withdraw.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, first of all, I believe the minister is debating the issue. Second of all, the member for St. Johns is basing his question on statements made by the minister and is asking for specific dates and specific circumstances on facts that have already been confirmed by the minister.
The essential test which we always have in this House of members bringing forth information which is factual, the member for St. Johns, the facts that he is basing his questions on are the statements by the minister himself.
Madam Speaker: On the point of order, I, indeed, do want to review the transcripts of Hansard, and I will, if necessary, report back to the House.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Northern and Native Affairs, to respond to the question.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Madam Speaker, I would like to.
First of all, Madam Speaker, what I have heard from the member for St. Johns is innuendo about a lot of different people, and I think that is most appropriate.
I want to say to the member, as well, that he makes accusations about me. I have to tell the honourable member, Madam Speaker, in answer to the member's question, I have had occasion as an MLA where I have had information provided to me or was aware of information that I had to provide to the police in an investigation.
I take that very seriously, Madam Speaker, and I would never condone an act of theft in retrieving an historical document. I would never want to do that, but I am glad to see that the member for St. Johns today also agrees that the bell of Batoche has a rightful historical place in Batoche. Yesterday, that was not his view.
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University of Manitoba
Sexual Harassment Report
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Education, and they are in regard to the chilly climate in the Political Studies department at the University of Manitoba.
Chilly climate is a continuum that can include sexual harassment, stalking, threats and sexual assault, as well as conditions that affect employment. At the University of Manitoba, insinuations abound, but nobody has presented an open and public account of the contents of the ad hoc committee's investigation.
My first question for the minister is, since the minister has a copy of the report, could she tell us if it contains allegations of sexual assault, stalking or threats?
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I have to indicate to the member that I have the report, and I have discussed the report with the president of the university.
He, like me and like the members on this side of the House and, I believe, like members opposite, is also concerned about the chilly climate, which is the terminology that is being used to indicate a climate in which certain groups of people, in this case, women, are left to feel outside the normal scope of things. As well, of course, I had indicated my concern that I wanted to know what kinds of actions were being taken, if there were any particular allegations about specific individuals.
The president of the university is going to be responding to me, and, as well, I believe that the dean of that particular faculty is referring the matter to the Human Rights Commission, any allegations that came to him.
Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, can the minister assure us here today that to the best of her knowledge, there have been no allegations of sexual assault, threats or stalking?
Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, I do not know if the report is a public report that the member has. I do not know if the member herself is referring to any specific individuals or incidences.
What I can tell the House is that I have discussed the matter with the president and asked that if there is anything of that nature, I would like to see that followed up on, and the president has indicated that he also will ensure that if there is anything of that nature, that it will indeed.
In the meantime, they have already started upon action concerning the chilly climate at the university, and I assure the member of my continued monitoring and dialogue on this particular issue.
Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, my third question is also for the Minister of Education.
If members of the university administration or members of the ad hoc committee had heard allegations of indictable offences, what onus is on them to report these incidences?
Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, there are two points in response to that. I assure the member that any allegation of criminal wrongdoing would certainly never go ignored by any member of the faculty or of the diaconate or the president or the government.
I also wish to indicate to the member that because there was a lot of confidentiality aspect around conversations concerning that report, that in respecting people's privacy, it is difficult to say so-and-so said this and so-and-so said that, because we do not wish to intrude upon people's privacy.
That is always a dilemma on this side of the House, whether it concerns a pupil, a patient, this type of incident or things before the courts. There are certain things that it is just not appropriate to discuss. What I can say to the member to get at the root of her concern, which is, I believe, if there is any wrongdoing, will it be dealt with, the answer to that is yes.
Health Care System
Child Psychiatric Services
Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Niccolo Machiavelli once said that the great majority of mankind is satisfied with appearances as though they are realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem rather than those that are.
Public appearances of fiscal prudence in health care spending cuts cannot hide human sufferings, particularly of young people, mentally disturbed youth, who are being denied psychiatric attention due to the misplaced priorities of this government.
Madam Speaker, my first question I would like to ask the Minister of Health is, what is the reason why a young man who had been placed in confinement since May 31 and of whom I wrote on June 12--I have not received an answer to this point. I do not know what is happening and what is going on in there.
Is it still the policy of this government to deny psychiatric assistance to those people needing help?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): No, Madam Speaker, it certainly is not, never has been, never will be.
I appreciate the concern expressed by the honourable member. He has, indeed, written to me about a young fellow who is receiving psychiatric care, although in a location which I think is not appropriate. I think the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) asked about that same case recently.
The care is there, Madam Speaker. It would more optimally be provided in another location, and we are trying to arrange for that.
Mr. Santos: Madam Speaker, even the authorities in the youth centre were saying that they have no facilities to take care of this youth, and they have no guard sometimes to attend to his needs.
My question is, how many more days must this youth be detained in the wrong facility such that he does not have access to psychiatric and medical attention?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the honourable member is wrong. This individual does have access to psychiatric and medical attention.
As I have said, however, I believe it should be provided in another place. I agree with the honourable member on that point, and we are making every effort to make that other place available, but twice now the honourable member has said he is being denied service, and he is not.
Madam Speaker, just in conclusion, I am advised that Machiavelli once said that those who most resist change are those who have the most to gain from the status quo. I think the honourable members representing their union-boss friends, as they do, are more like--
Madam Speaker: Order, please.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I would point out once again that answers are supposed to relate to the matter raised.
While the minister may wish to discuss Machiavelli, and quite obviously their election campaign in terms of Machiavelli's Prince--we can get into those literary debates if the member wants, but we would appreciate it if he would answer the very serious question raised by the member for Broadway, instead of engaging in those kinds of comments.
Mr. McCrae: On the same point of order, the honourable member for Broadway raised a very serious matter. I gave a very serious answer. The honourable member for Thompson wants to criticize me for doing precisely what the member for Broadway did.
Madam Speaker: On the honourable member for Thompson's point of order, there is no point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
The honourable Minister of Health also does not have a point of order.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Broadway, with one very short supplementary question.
Mr. Santos: If this government is to choose between the value of human compassion or saving money, which one will this government choose?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, our record over the past seven years suggests the former, that being human compassion, rather than the latter, because we are spending 34 percent of our budget on health care, a higher level than anywhere else in this country. I sure wish we had $634 million more, but the NDP denied us that money.
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Winnipeg Jets/Arena
Government Briefing
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier whether on Monday evening of this week past, they received a briefing with some substantive detail from the Dominion Hunt-Spirit consortium in cabinet, where certain documents were left with members of cabinet.
Can the minister confirm that that briefing took place this Monday evening past or at some other time this week?
Point of Order
Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I will find the exact quotation. It is 409--I cannot find the exact quotation alone, but it is Section 409 in Beauchesne's which clearly indicates that questions of cabinet confidence ought not to be addressed in the Chamber here.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs was up on a point of order?
Mr. Ernst: Yes, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable minister for that clarification.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, on the same point of order, I think the minister was probably referring to 411, Citation 2, but I believe, Madam Speaker, if you were to listen to the question that was placed by the member, he very clearly indicated that he was asking a question as to whether the government had been briefed, was not referring to cabinet per se, and, in fact, I think he made that very clear. He clarified that in his final question.
He clarified that he was not referring to cabinet being briefed but whether the government had been briefed. It is clearly out of order to make reference to proceedings in a cabinet meeting, but it is not out of order to ask if this government received a briefing on this report on the arena.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. To be absolutely certain that the ruling is fair, I, indeed, will take this under advisement and confirm that, indeed, there was reference to cabinet in the question from the honourable member for Crescentwood.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood, very quickly, a supplementary question.
Mr. Sale: I would like to ask the members opposite whether there has been a meeting at which the discussion has taken place as to the building of the new arena, the design of the new arena and the details of that process at which they were given information as members of the government.
Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): The answer, Madam Speaker, is yes.
Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.