LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Monday, May 31, 1993
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING PETITIONS
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Candice Hrabowich, Lillian Allan, Nicole Hudson and others requesting the Premier
(Mr. Filmon) to consider making, as a major priority, the establishment of a
solvent abuse treatment facility in northern
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Ralph Wood, Myra Wood, Patrick Wood and others requesting the Premier (Mr.
Filmon) to consider making, as a major priority, the establishment of a solvent
abuse treatment facility in northern
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Margaret Wood, William Mason, Loren Mason and others requesting the Premier
(Mr. Filmon) to consider making, as a major priority, the establishment of a
solvent abuse treatment centre in northern
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Elizabeth Knott, Thelma Knott, Bernadette Harper and others requesting the
Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider making, as a major priority, the establishment
of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern
Mr. Speaker: I
have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the privileges and the
practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the
petition read? ╒agreedσ
Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS there is a very serious
solvent abuse problem in northern
WHEREAS according to the RCMP over
100 crimes in Thompson alone in 1992 were linked to solvent abuse; and
WHEREAS there are no facilities to
deal with solvent abuse victims in northern
WHEREAS for over three years, the
provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti‑sniff
bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors
buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northern
WHEREAS for nine years, the 25
Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical
officials, police and the area Member of Parliament, have proposed a pilot
treatment project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and
WHEREAS successive federal Ministers
of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and
WHEREAS the
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly
pray that the Legislative Assembly of
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker:
Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable
members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Leaf
Rapids Education Centre, twenty Grade 8 students under the direction of Ms.
Juli Dishaw. This school is located in
the constituency of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie).
On behalf of all honourable members
I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Maple Leaf Fund
Approval Process
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier
(Mr. Filmon).
On page 25 of Section 3 of the
government report dealing with the Immigrant Investor Fund, it states, dealing
with the second issue of the Canadian Maple Leaf Fund, that approval was
subsequently given on the basis of submissions made by the funds. Deficiencies would be rectified through the
funding of existing opportunities and based upon sizable investments to be made
in the
Mr. Speaker, the report is very
specific on some of the dates prior to that.
Could the government please tell us when they approved the second fund
for the Maple Leaf Fund and how much was that for?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade
and Tourism): Mr.
Speaker, the provincial approval was received in November of 1991. I think the federal approval was received not
long thereafter, as is the process, as the Leader of the Opposition well knows.
I would not want to quote an amount
without giving him a firm amount. I will
get him the firm amount. I will take
that part of the question as notice. The
approval dates were November '91, and the federal date was subsequent to that.
* (1335)
Immigrant Investor Fund
Internal Review Results
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on March 26, 1991, after we
wrote the Premier on March 25, 1991, the minister indicated that an internal
review would be ordered into the workings of the Immigrant Investor Fund in
terms of dealing with the
I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.
Filmon) whether he received a copy of the internal report and why the internal
report did not precipitate the external investigation that we had in the summer
of '92.
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade
and Tourism): Mr.
Speaker, the internal report basically indicated that the provincial guidelines
and the federal guidelines were basically being complied with at that
particular point in time. Subsequent to
that, the federal government undertook a review of the overall regulations and
guidelines which we participated in. We
started participating in that as late as 1991.
We submitted a presentation to the
task force through my administration. I
then wrote the chairman of the task force in June of 1992, at that point in
time outlining some concerns about compliance that had come to light.
Bison Fund
Government Action
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, clearly the activity of the
internal investigation that was ordered by the minister failed to ring the
bells in terms of what was going on, when we look back through the findings of
these reports and we see massive amounts of money not being dedicated to the
purposes that the government had originally stated in Hansard questions, et
cetera, in this Chamber.
Mr. Speaker, on page 16 of Part 2 of
the report dealing with another fund, the Bison Fund, the report finds that the
fund manager pointed to the fact that investments had received provincial
government approval as required for all syndicated fund investments.
Subsequent to that, the minister
admitted, Mr. Speaker, that the Bison Fund had received provincial government
approval to reinvest money into the Sheraton Hotel, in spite of the fact that
private investors had refused to go into that particular investment.
Could the minister please indicate,
given that he told us he approved this on December 16, 1992, why they did not
take action on the syndicated funds when clearly there was evidence well in
advance of the report being issued in this Chamber that there were definite problems
in terms of syndicated funds being utilized for the purposes stated in the
Immigrant Investor Program?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade
and Tourism): Mr.
Speaker, the Bison Fund investment in the Sheraton, we spoke about at the time that
it occurred. In terms of the guidelines
that are in place relative to Immigrant Investor Funds, syndicated funds, job
maintenance is one of the criteria that are in place. So it was under that basis that the
investment was approved in the Sheraton.
The Leader of the Opposition knows
full well what our role is. I have told
him on many occasions what the role of the provincial government is in terms of
the review of the economic benefits to our province, whether it is job
enhancement or job maintenance, and, clearly, the criteria do qualify for job
maintenance. So that was the section
that the Sheraton qualified under.
Obviously, subsequent events led to
a failure in that particular operation, but it did qualify under the guidelines
that are in place, Mr. Speaker.
* (1340)
Immigrant Investor Fund
Correspondence Tabling
Request
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, on Friday, when I asked the
Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism questions about his own role as minister
in approving these projects which appear to have resulted in tens of millions
of dollars disappearing from investor funds, the minister suggested that, and I
quote, "We have grabbed hold of this issue."
Mr. Speaker, given the fact that
these issues and the concerns about the Immigrant Investor Program were raised
back in 1989, and this minister indicated, alleges, that he wrote in March of
1991 to the federal government, can he now table for this House any letters
which he has sent to the federal government prior to his letter of June 5 which
would have indicated what the government's actions were going to be to correct
the problems that led to the loss of tens of millions of dollars for investors
into this program?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade
and Tourism): Mr.
Speaker, I, again, want to remind the member for Flin Flon that it is through
the actions and initiatives of this government that many concerns around the
Immigrant Investor Program are, in fact, coming to light. I did write the federal minister back in
1991. I subsequently wrote the chairman
of the task force on the Immigrant Investor Fund back in June of 1992,
outlining concerns of this province.
It is interesting to see that, now,
concern is increasing across our nation.
I have an example of an editorial written in the Edmonton Journal, May
30 of 1993, Mr. Speaker, yesterday, outlining many concerns in that province
and referring to: Asian investors in
Asia and in
We are the first province to step in
and do detailed audits, to make specific, concrete recommendations to deal with
the problems around that program, and we will continue to pursue resolving
those issues.
Mr. Storie:
Mr.
Speaker, what we are trying to do here is to discover who is accountable for
this mess. The minister has been aware
of the problems with the Immigrant Investor Fund since 1989.
I asked the minister whether he
would table his letter to the federal government from March 1991 so that we can
see how deep his concern ran. Will the
minister also table, for the information of this House and the people of
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting, again, that a
member who was a member of a government back in 1986 when this program was
introduced at the federal level, who had an opportunity to deal with this issue
upfront, which is when it should have been done, did nothing. In fact, they took the step, in another area,
of actually reducing the amount of requirement that is required for funds here
in
We got into the program and we are
doing something about it. You can criticize the timing and talk about the
timing. At least we are grabbing hold of
this issue, and we are doing something about it, unlike what occurred during
their time in government, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Storie:
Mr. Speaker, the machinations of the member opposite are bizarre.
This government has been in power
since 1988. If taking five years to
protect the investment of people is grabbing hold of it, Mr. Speaker, I think
he better explain what he is doing in that chair‑‑
Mr. Speaker:
Question, please.
Mr. Storie:
Mr. Speaker, the minister has refused to table letters which would
indicate that this government acted in 1991.
Will the minister now indicate
whether he is going to table the 1991 letter and any instructions he gave to
staff, including the staff responsible for this program, Mr. Bessey perhaps
included, on what steps should be taken to prevent the abuse of this program?
Did he in fact take any steps whatsoever
to protect the loss of tens of millions of dollars?
Mr. Stefanson:
Mr. Speaker, it is also interesting, the questions now coming from the
members of the opposition, but again they had their opportunity from '86 to '88
and did nothing. They asked some
questions in 1991, granted, after a local media brought to the forefront some
concern about the whole issue of a potential conflict of interest, but no
questions around what we see today, never a question from the members of the
opposition about the problems we see today.
All of a sudden after the fact, they are coming in after we have tabled
audits, after we have taken initiatives, acting as though they had answers to
these problems and try to do something about it.
They did absolutely nothing, Mr.
Speaker. We have been open throughout
the process. We have tabled the five
audits that were prepared by Deloitte and Touche, have tabled information. I will continue to make as much information
as is possible available.
* (1345)
Immigrant Investor Fund
Attorney General's
Involvement
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is clear that the Immigrant
Investment Fund, no matter what province it has been located in anywhere in
this nation, has not had the integrity it should have had. That is perfectly clear. What must, I think, be determined now, is if
we have done everything possible within the
I would like to know from the
minister responsible, today, what actions the Attorney General is planning to
take as a result of this audit.
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade
and Tourism): As
the Leader of the second opposition party knows, I believe three funds back at
the end of December were frozen‑‑the Ramada Renaissance at
We have made a recommendation to the
federal government around the funds that currently exist in those three
projects, suggesting that we think the matter should be taken to court and that
the court should be appointing somebody to act on behalf of the investors. That court‑appointed individual could
then deal on behalf of investors with
That is our recommendation. To date, the federal government has not
accepted that recommendation.
Mrs. Carstairs: The minister at a press conference indicated
that he had referred the entire audit to the Attorney General and that the
recommendation was that the Attorney General take some action.
Can the minister tell us what the
Attorney General plans to do in the
Mr. Stefanson:
Mr. Speaker, when the Leader of the Second Opposition asked about what
we were doing for the investors, particularly around those projects, I outlined
what we are doing for the investors as it exists today with the funds they have
on deposit.
In terms of what we have found
throughout these audits, we are referring all five audits to the Attorney
General's department. They will
determine what appropriate steps they have to take in terms of further
investigation.
If there is an attempt to determine
whether or not fraud has occurred here, Mr. Speaker, there is a significant
amount of work that has to be done to determine that. Obviously, we need to talk to individual
investors, determine how these funds were presented to them, on what basis they
made their investment, what their understanding was at the time they made their
investment‑‑a significant amount of work.
The Attorney General's department
will make that determination.
Funding Return
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the
recommendations was very, very specific.
It ordered Bryan Dudek and Kye Wong to return the funds to the Toronto
Dominion Bank.
Has this government ordered the
return of that fund that was borrowed inappropriately? Has that money been returned by order of this
government?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade
and Tourism): Mr.
Speaker, we do not have the authority to make that order. We have corresponded and are forwarding all
of that information to the federal government to suggest that they do that,
just like we had to recommend to the federal government that they freeze the
funds.
We did not have the authority to
freeze the Lakeview funds. We made the recommendation, as I reminded this House
on Friday, to the federal government to freeze the Lakeview funds. They did just that. Obviously, it will be up to them to decide
whether or not they accept that recommendation as well.
Social Assistance
Employment Creation
Strategy
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Family
Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), Mr. Speaker.
As a former minister of employment
services, I have always opposed compulsory workfare for welfare recipients
because it is inequitable. Workfare is
authoritarian. Workfare does not provide
for the best utilization of skills and interests of individuals on welfare.
However, Mr. Speaker, I do and have
advocated employment programs that offer choices in job opportunities for
welfare recipients, and we had many successful programs when I was minister of
employment services during the previous NDP government.
Mr. Speaker, my question to the
minister: Is the Minister of Family
Services now ready to reverse his opposition to employment programs that
provide job opportunities and choices for welfare recipients and, specifically,
is he prepared to co‑operate with the City of
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, not wishing to accept any of the
diatribe, the preamble, that the member for Brandon East put on the record, I
can tell you that we have been approached by the City of
Mr. Speaker, we are at the present
time looking into that proposal by the City of
* (1350)
Mr. Leonard Evans: I thank the minister for that information.
I would like to ask the minister if
he or his colleague the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has
taken the time to look at the past records and co‑operation the previous
NDP government received with
Has he or the Minister of Family
Services taken time to see the co‑operation we received with
Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, last year, we had a co‑operative
program with the federal government and the City of
That was one, I think, very good
program. We are conducting an analysis
of that, as well, to determine that the expected benefits matched the real
benefits.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the entire answer
to my first question that I would like to ask the minister, and I hope this is
not repetitive.
Will the minister and his staff be
meeting with the appropriate
Mr. Ernst:
Mr. Speaker, we already have met with appropriate officials and city
councillors from the City of
Construction Industry
Wage Freeze
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, some weeks ago, I asked the
Minister of Labour why he was ignoring the recommendation of the Greater
Winnipeg Building Construction Wages Board.
He replied that no decision has been made not to accept their
recommendation, but on March 16 of this year the same minister wrote to the
Manitoba‑Winnipeg Building and Construction Trades Council that,
quote: A decision was made to postpone
any consideration of these proposals pending the outcome of The Construction
Industry Wages Act review.
I want to ask the minister today
which is the real answer. Has he simply chosen to unilaterally freeze wages or
is he choosing to unilaterally freeze wages while he waits for the outcome of
the review?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the member's
question would indicate a lack of understanding of what we are talking about in
The Construction Industry Wages Act. The
Construction Industry Wages Act does not set the rate. It sets a minimum rate
of pay. Anyone is free to pay more. It does not restrict what one can negotiate
with their employers. It only provides for a minimum.
Ms. Friesen:
Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us, since he wrote in this letter
to the board that he is not going to look at these proposals until the act has
been reviewed, could he tell us which other bills, which other proposals he is
going to review in the near future?‑‑since a government review
seems to preclude any kind of acknowledgement of existing spirit and practices
of existing law, just as it does in the Sunday shopping case.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): They are above the law.
Mr. Praznik:
Well, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) shouts, one is above the
law. No one is above the law. I say to the Leader of the Opposition, these
are minimum wages established under this act.
There is a scale in place. We
received recommendations, and we indicated at that particular time that when we
receive the report‑‑and one should be aware that one of the
questions in the review was whether or not we should have the scheme at all.
Quite frankly, I expected to receive
the report much earlier than in fact it is taking. I understand the holdup is because the Labour
Management Review Committee, in which labour and management review and make
recommendations to government, is going over those recommendations very
thoroughly. So I have not received the
report as of yet.
Ms. Friesen:
Mr. Speaker, the point is that there should be no relationship between
the review and the recommendations that are made annually to this board.
I want to ask the minister: Will he tell us when he is going to act on
the recommendations of the construction board before the end of this
construction season?‑‑unlike his practice in '91‑92 when
wages were not adjusted until October '92, the end of the construction season.
Mr. Praznik: I
give the member for Wolseley the same answer that I gave her in Question
Period: in due course.
* (1355)
Provincial Parks
Commercial Activity
Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Natural Resources.
The minister has now tabled today
the long‑awaited new
Mr. Speaker, the minister at Section
10.1(b) has still reserved unto himself the right to, by ministerial
regulation, allow any commercial activity including logging, mining or drilling
in any provincial park.
Our current parks act is the worst
in
My question for the minister: Why has he not done in this legislation what
is expected by Manitobans of parks, which is to preserve this land from adverse
commercial use like mining and logging activity which currently is allowed in
our parks?
Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):
Mr. Speaker, I look forward to debating the
new parks legislation with the honourable member and indeed all members of the
Legislature, which I suspect will be on Wednesday. The honourable member will have an
opportunity to understand that within the scope of the bill, a number of the
issues that are important to Manitobans will be addressed.
I include among those things the
economic values of our parks. We have
the privilege in
I ask the honourable member just a
quite simply direct question. Does he
want me to put a thousand people out of work at
Mr. Edwards: I
would like the minister to do what the Clean Environment Commission told him to
do, which is come up with a logging policy which makes sense, Mr. Speaker. It was overturned by the Minister of
Environment (Mr. Cummings) two weeks after they came up with it.
My question for the minister: Why in this act is there absolutely no
protection of park lands against logging, drilling and mining which is only
preserved for the wilderness and heritage zones? Why is there no protection for the park lands
against any of those, let alone all of them‑‑any of them? Why is it left to ministerial edict again, Mr.
Speaker?
Mr. Enns: Mr.
Speaker, I do acknowledge and appreciate the fact that the honourable member
has read, apparently, a good portion of the bill, because if, indeed, it should
be determined that all our parks should be zoned for no economic extraction,
then all our parks will be so zoned.
Every acre of all our parks, 123 parks in
Mr. Edwards:
On
the contrary, the public will not have a choice. This minister will make the decision, Mr.
Speaker‑‑
Mr. Speaker:
Order, please. This is not a time
for debate.
The honourable member for St. James,
with your question, please.
Mr. Edwards:
My final question for the minister:
What percentage of the current parkland in this province will qualify
for the wilderness or heritage designation so that it will have some protection
from commercial use which is inappropriate and inconsistent with what a park is
about?
Mr. Enns: Mr.
Speaker, I have been in this House long enough. It usually backfires when you
try to compliment a member. The member
obviously did not read the bill all that well, because one of the strongest
features of the bill is the public processes involved in the designation of the
system plans, in the designations of boundary and in the designations of the
character of the park. All of that can
only be done under full public process, not by this minister alone, not by a
Parks director alone.
Mr. Speaker, a great deal of
importance hinges on the process that is built into the park which will
determine which areas will be characterized by the various classifications
under the new legislation.
Point of Order
Mr. Edwards:
Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, perhaps the minister could clarify‑‑the
act is very clear about a public process.
It is also clear about the minister's right at the end of the day‑‑
Mr. Speaker:
Order, please. The honourable
member does not have a point of order.
That is clearly a dispute over the facts.
* (1400)
Child and Family
Services
Reduced Workweek
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, again this weekend, there was a
major incident involving violence and large numbers of young people, yet this government
continues to cut education services and community‑based support programs
and services.
I would ask the Minister of Family
Services: How is this government going
to deal with the problem that having government staff off on Fridays when the
majority of young people will have more free time on their hands is going to
harm, not help this situation?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family
Services): Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the member
that the workweek reduction was not this past Friday; it was the previous
Friday. The board and the executive director of the Winnipeg Child and Family
Services have sent over a review of the activities of the previous Friday, and
it was business as usual for the agency.
Youth Violence
Conflict Resolution
Services
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, for the same minister: Are there any government staff involved in
follow‑up services with the young people involved from this past weekend,
to try and get them to use their time more productively and to try and train
them in more socially responsible ways of conflict resolution? Are there any follow‑up services for
these over 200 young people?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family
Services): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what the member is
referring to, but certainly the school system has their guidance counsellors in
place. The various Child and Family
Services agencies are there to work with community groups in helping to resolve
many of these issues.
Ms. Cerilli:
Mr. Speaker, as the minister puts more burden on our school system with
its ever‑shrinking resources, I would ask the minister to give us some
indication of what this government attributes the causes for this trend of
increased violence among young people.
Mr. Gilleshammer: The causes that the member wants me to
speculate on, all of us are watching many changes and transitions that are
happening in society. Some of them are
positive and some of them are negative.
I suspect that
Drug and Substance Abuse
Committee Report Release
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
We would like to know, Mr. Speaker,
since there is no sign yet of that report, where is the report as a result of
that consultation? Will the minister
table it in the House today?
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am unable to comply with my
honourable friend's desire, but she might be well aware that subsequent to that
very useful and beneficial public consultation process, a number of initiatives
have emanated which we believe will substantially contribute towards mitigating
the illegal use of substances and the subsequent damage that can do to
individuals so involved.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, my question is simple, though. I
am trying to find out where is this report that goes back three years.
Specifically, I will ask the
Minister of Health: Where is the report
that he said on June 24, 1991, would be released for the next budget cycle and
would have a synthesis of the suggestions from the community across the length
and breadth of this province?
Mr. Orchard:
Mr.
Speaker, that discussion process, consultation process, has given government a
number of areas of guidance in which programs have been initiated for the
benefit of students and youth in terms of assistance to curtail the illegal and
abusive use of illegal substances, and a number of the suggestions and actions
of this government emanate from the public consultation process which was quite
expansive, as my honourable friend so indicates.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, all we have are glossy reports
and lots of rhetoric and broken promises.
I want to ask specifically the
Minister of Health, since the problem in terms of drugs, solvent abuse and
substance abuse is growing daily in our society today, could he tell us, where
is the report after these consultations involving 700 more individuals, or is
this just another broken Tory promise?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I know that my honourable friend
has a federal election campaign to win, but my honourable friend ought to
appreciate that part of the commitment and the delivery of the commitment is
now before the House in terms of a substance abuse and anti‑sniff bill,
which will work.
It could be law today, if my
honourable friends the New Democrats were not stopping its passage to second
reading.
Temro Automotive
Agreement
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister
responsible for MPIC.
Three years ago, under this government,
the MPIC struck a secret deal with Temro corporation concerning defective in‑car
heaters. Last December, when this deal
became public, the minister responsible for MPIC said he would tear up the
agreement. He said that if any more
fires were linked to the heaters, the company would end up in court. Since then, Mr. Speaker, six more fires have
occurred.
I would like to ask the
minister: Will the minister now tell the
House why he has not broken the deal, and will he table the contents of the
deal?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the
administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, the member has paraphrased my
comments correctly but not quite accurately as far as the intent is concerned.
Mr. Speaker, I indicated at that
time that I would prefer the deal had never been struck, and it was my intent
that it should be ended. Nevertheless,
there are some curves in the road to getting to where one would like to be on this
issue. As a matter of fact, the corporation,
as it turned out, is the only corporation in
In asking for a legal opinion on the
ability to withdraw from the deal, the second part of our concern becomes very
apparent, and that is, we wanted more publicity for the people in the province
to make sure that if they had a heater which they were concerned about, they
took advantage of the opportunity to return it to the original manufacturer.
Mr. Speaker, there has been plenty
of publicity. I suspect what we are
saying right at this moment will add to that publicity.
Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister
this: How many other secret deals does
MPIC have with other manufacturers of other products?
Mr. Cummings:
Mr. Speaker, I said this deal should not have been struck, and we would
not be striking any more.
Mr. Maloway:
Mr. Speaker, since there were over 135 fires caused by these heaters and
now six more, I want to ask the minister why it is that he agreed to pay any of
the costs, let alone 50 percent of the costs under this deal.
Mr. Cummings:
Well, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the member did not take the second
part, which was unsaid, of my earlier answer, and that is, the corporation did
take a number of these heaters to court to try to determine a cause. They failed to prove that there was any
negligence that would allow them to collect.
A number of other companies across
* (1410)
Francophone Schools
Governance Funding
Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the minister stated that the new
Francophone school division, created in response to the Supreme Court decision,
will be funded from grant money transferred from existing school divisions to
the new Francophone division based on a student basis of about $4,000 per
student.
Additionally, existing school divisions
will have to transfer a proportion of the funds raised locally from local
school property taxes, based on students as well, an additional $1,000 to
$1,500 per student. All of this will
create additional burdens on existing school divisions.
I want to ask the Minister of
Education what assurances she can give this House that the existing school
divisions will not be asked to bear the cost of the new Francophone school
division that is being proposed by her government.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr. Speaker, I think a point the member needs
to realize is the students who will be attending in the Francophone school
division are currently attending in an existing school division now; therefore,
the funds which are being used to educate those students are already being paid
out. The funds will then move with the
student into the new Francophone division.
Parallel Programming
Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, in light of the statement made by
the minister when she introduced Bill 34, and I quote, " . . . the new
Francophone board will be obliged to conduct its operation in an efficient and
cost‑effective manner, mindful of the necessary limits to overall public
expenditure."
Why did the minister choose the much
more expensive option of offering parallel programming for francais programs,
rather than just in the Francophone division, as was done in
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr. Speaker, again, I do not believe that
Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the minister seems to contradict
herself, because she says choice is the guiding principle.
I ask her how she can reconcile that
statement with her statement in the Legislature when she introduced Bill 34, in
which I quote from her statement: "
. . . in a particular school community, the long‑respected principle of
majority determination, the only practical way of dealing with such an issue,
will be applied."
How does she reconcile this issue of
choice that she talks about with her statement that majority, democratic
decisions will apply?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, the member does not understand
the issue at stake here in terms of Francophone governance. It will be that within a community where a
large number and the majority number of individuals wish to join the
Francophone school division, then that will be the case.
However, there may be some
individuals who do not wish to join and who wish to maintain their particular
programming within their home school division.
Or, it may in fact be the other way, that there is a community which
wishes to remain within the same agreement with their home school community,
and therefore there will be provisions made for entitled families to have their
child educated within the Francophone school division.
I do wonder, when he discusses the
issue of choice and his difficulty with the issue of choice, if this is in fact
a position of the whole NDP caucus, because I see over a number of issues, the
issue of choice came forward even, I gather, as a resolution from one of their
conventions.
We hear the issues of choice being
raised in the area of health care; we hear the issues of choice being raised in
the area of aboriginal justice, but my honourable friend seems to be having
difficulty with that in the matter of education.
Mr. Speaker:
Order, please.
Point of Order
Mr. Plohman: On
a point of order, the issue is not one of choice, the issue is one of
cost. That is what we are raising with
the minister. She cannot give one answer
on the issue of efficiencies and costs.
Mr. Speaker:
Order, please. The honourable
member does not have a point of order.
It is a dispute over the facts.
Tower Funding
Investigation
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the
Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.
On May 27, in Hansard, in the
question of Tower Funding, she says that she obtained a court order and carried
out an order to freeze the firm's bank account.
What I would like to ask the
minister at this point is: What did they
find in the firm's bank account, or did this firm leave town and take all the
money with them?
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and
Corporate Affairs): I would like, first of all, to indicate to the
member that the investigation is still ongoing and that we have more
information yet that we can eventually bring forward.
The bank account had very little
money in it, under $1,000, because most of the operations, as the member knows,
were carried out in cash with that particular group.
Mr. Maloway:
Perhaps the minister could explain why she waited until after press
articles indicated there was a problem with this company before she went in to
try to see something. It is no wonder
she did not find anything; because of the press articles, they were able to
take the money and leave.
Mrs. McIntosh: I
should indicate that the member knows full well, because it has been indicated
to him before, that we received our first complaint April 20. Between April 20 and May 10, we received an
additional five complaints‑‑five complaints‑‑spread out
over that space of that three‑week period.
Each of those five complaints is
being investigated individually and collectively to determine if there was a
pattern. That must be done before any
consumer alert would be issued, and the member knows that‑‑or
should know that if he does not. At the
time that we were doing that, the Free Press also received a call and published
the issue.
Publishing the issue, Mr. Speaker,
is doing effectively what a consumer alert would have done. The member also should know that a consumer
alert is a press release that seeks to draw information to the public's
attention. That happened simultaneously.
As soon as the Consumers' Bureau
determined a pattern, they began the process for injunction, going to the court
to request the court orders. That was
done in a very quick and timely fashion according to due process of law, which
we must follow on the basis of evidence.
Private Money Lenders
Legislation
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the
minister is: When will she do something
to regulate loan brokers in this province?
Just a couple of hours ago I had another call from a person up in Flin
Flon who is being taken by fraudulent loan broker operators.
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and
Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, there are
several things that happen when there is fraud or criminal activity in the
marketplace.
I should indicate, first of all,
that something again I would hope the member should have known‑‑in
my department alone, there are 29 acts governing the marketplace. There are acts governing the marketplace in
many other departments as well. In
addition, there is the Criminal Code of Canada.
These multiple number of acts cover most circumstances the law‑abiding
citizens could wish to obey.
People who are intent upon fraud or
breaking the law, of course, do not care for what the law says. There is a law against murder; our jails are
full of people who have committed the crime of murder. So while I say I believe that existing
legislation covers all those who are willing to abide by the law, I am always
willing to consider changes to law and improvements to law. We will continue to examine this to see if
this is necessary.
In the meantime, while
investigations are ongoing, it behooves all of us to know that questions in the
House can sometimes tip off people and give them the opportunity to leave town.
Mr. Speaker:
Time for Oral Questions has expired.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
Hon. Darren Praznik (Deputy Government House
Leader): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I would like to ask if
you could canvass to see if there is leave to waive private members' hour.
Mr. Speaker:
Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour?
Some Honourable Members: No.
Mr. Speaker:
No. Leave is denied.
Mr. Praznik:
Mr. Speaker, I would then move, seconded by the honourable Minister of
Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and that
the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be
granted to Her Majesty.
Motion agreed to, and the House
resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her
Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the
Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the member for
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent Sections)
EDUCATION AND TRAINING
Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please.
Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.
This afternoon, this section of the
Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the
Estimates of Education and Training.
When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1.
Administration and Finance (e) Financial and Administrative Services (1)
Salaries on page 34 of the Estimates book.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when we were last
together, I said that I would table for the members excerpts of the Internal
Management audit findings in the Estimates.
So I am tabling Summary Excerpts of Audit Findings for the fiscal year
'92‑93 by the Internal Management Audit branch. This is in response to the request where
there was a request at the last time that we were together, and it is being
presented in good faith as an example of some of the work and the types of
issues and recommendations that are brought forward by the Internal Management
Audit branch.
It is noted that the department has
been taking action on the findings and the recommendations of the Internal
Management auditors. Some issues have
already been addressed and resolved by the program management, and others are
in the process. Internal Management Audit branch conducts follow‑ups on
the progress that is being made.
It must be recognized that the
internal audit function is an independent function for purposes of advising
departmental management on internal management policies, practices and controls. The nature of the audits conducted and
reports thereon frequently provide audit opinions, advice and recommendations
to the department management and may be used by the deputy minister and the
minister for consideration in making decisions on departmental management
practices.
It should be recognized that the
work of the internal auditor is intended for internal purposes and that
professional opinions and confidentiality, where necessary, must also be
respected. Specific issues or concerns about program operations should be
discussed within Estimates under the program subappropriations.
* (1430)
The question of the timing of the
release of the audit reports was previously raised. It is noted that audits are conducted in
accordance with professionally recognized standards. The auditor establishes the audit process and
the scope of the work conducted. While
the minister and the deputy minister and senior management may provide some
direction as to the priority of which audits should be conducted, they do not
direct specific audit processes, including the duration of the audit or the
release of the audit findings. The
auditor makes the determination of whether sufficient and appropriate audit
evidence, including management comments and responses, has been received to
enable the release of the final report.
I will table these now.
Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): The minister tabled all of the ones for the
1992‑93 year? Is this the
total? I missed her comments. ╒interjectionσ A
summary, I know. The member for Osborne
(Mr. Alcock) is indicating that this is a summary. I understand it is a summary of the audits,
but is it a summary of all of the audits that were completed?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is summary excerpts of the total completed.
Mr. Plohman:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thank the minister for that.
She indicates that there are a
couple of those in process, being the PACE and Training division and the Post‑Secondary
Career Development/Adult and Continuing Education branch. Were there any in that status in '91‑92
that are not part of this summary audit?
In other words, there may have been some ongoing when we were dealing
with Estimates last year at this time.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, these are the completed audits that we have to
date.
Mr. Plohman: I
am not attempting to be difficult. I
just wanted to ask the minister if there were any in process from the previous
year that we would not have been able to receive, so actually were completed in
the '92‑93 fiscal year.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, that is correct. Those are now included
within that list.
Mr. Plohman:
Which ones were a carry‑over from the previous year? I see '92 in all of these.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that we would have to check and
see if any of these were begun in the year previous.
Mr. Plohman:
Well, it seems very straightforward that this year, the minister's
department is planning to do a number that are listed in the Supplementary
Estimates, including Workforce 2000 down to New Careers, right? The ones that were given today are the list
that started last year. I was just
asking whether there were any continuing on from the previous year that would
be included.
It is safe to say that none of those
that would have been continuing on are part of this summary list that the
minister has given us. These are just
the ones that were started in '92‑93.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member has been asking, were there any
audits begun in the year '91‑92 which would have been completed in '92‑93
which would cause them to fall into a somewhat similar position as the PACE and
Training in the '92‑93 reported in '93‑94.
What I have answered is, to our
knowledge, no, but we would have to check to be sure.
Mr. Plohman:
Yes, I would appreciate it if the minister would do that, and I can
assume from her statement that all of the ones listed here were those started
in '92‑93.
Mrs. Vodrey:
We will check but as far as we believe, that is the case. They were started in '92‑93.
Mr. Plohman:
Can the minister indicate the rationale behind the community college
audits? Was this as a part of their
outgoing status from departmental control to independent corporate status and
therefore an effort to provide some suggestions to the new governance, or is
this an ongoing procedure, that they will still be subject to internal audits
under the current system?
Mrs. Vodrey: I
am informed that the colleges were audited as part of the regular cycle and the
regular cycle of audits to be completed.
In the future, the role of internal audit will not be to provide a
financial audit as the colleges have moved to governance.
However, I am informed that the
internal audit of the Department of Education may still provide a comprehensive
management audit, and that would be supplemental to the audit which is done by
the internal audit of the colleges.
Mr. Plohman:
So to clarify then, the minister is saying that the existing legislation
for the governance of the community colleges does not require them to be part
of an internal audit function by the department?
Mrs. Vodrey:
The answer is no, and that the new act, however, does allow us to
monitor the colleges closely. We can
monitor the colleges through the Colleges Secretariat, but our internal audit
function from the Department of Education and Training would not have the
colleges as part of our regular cycle for an audit. However, we would have the ability to do that
audit, the management audit in particular.
I am also informed that it is very
similar or the same as our relationship with Frontier School Division.
Mr. Plohman:
But the minister is saying the Colleges Secretariat could actually
undertake audits of a financial nature?
Mrs. Vodrey: The
colleges have their own internal audit mechanism; however, through our Colleges
Secretariat, they do have the opportunity to monitor the activities of the
college. Then I could request or could be requested to ask our internal auditor
to become involved.
* (1440)
Mr. Plohman:
Well then the secretariat would request the Internal Audit staff to
become involved. If that was done on
request, then they could become involved?
Is that what the minister said, or did she say the individual colleges
could request the Internal Audit to become involved?
Mrs. Vodrey:
The secretariat would not go directly to the internal auditor, but
instead would make the request to the deputy minister. Then, as the process and cycle of the audit
was determined, it would be determined if in fact there would be an audit by
our internal auditor of the colleges.
Mr. Plohman:
Would this be done in co‑operation with the individual college, or
could it be requested by the assistant deputy minister or the minister that
such an internal audit be done, or would it have to be agreed to by the
independent community college?
Mrs. Vodrey:
This is part of our process of accountability. We would expect the colleges to co‑operate. We believe that they would be co‑operative,
and we would not have to wait for the colleges to ask for such an audit.
Mr. Plohman:
Does the minister expect that the Internal Audit staff will work with
the Colleges Secretariat? I take it the
Colleges Secretariat is the intercolleges committee. Is that the same, or is there another
mechanism there?
If there is an intercolleges
committee or the secretariat or both to attempt to co‑ordinate the
offerings of the various community colleges in the province, is there any
function of the Internal Audit in this aspect?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it could be either one who might request the
assistance of our own Internal Management.
The Colleges Secretariat is separate and is different from the Colleges
Advisory Board, but it could be either one of those bodies which may wish to
make a request in terms of the internal audit.
Mr. Plohman:
Have there been any requests or has there been any direction from the
minister to have the colleges in conjunction with the Internal Audit staff do
some investigation of possible reconciliation of programming, so certain
colleges would offer certain courses and specialties, and there would not be as
much overlap and so on‑‑the co‑ordination of offerings, in
other words?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no, I have not directed the Internal Audit to do
any looking at the programming offered among the colleges or between the
colleges, and that function, if there was discussion about that particular
issue, would probably, most likely fall within the Colleges Advisory Board.
Mr. Plohman: A
final question on this, is the minister aware of any initiation of that by the
advisory committee at the present time?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no, there has not been a request yet from the
Colleges Advisory Board. Also, just to
finish the questioning around the audit of the community colleges, again, I
would remind him that the Internal Audit does operate somewhat cyclically, and
with the audits having just been performed this year, then there would likely
not be a request immediately.
Mr. Plohman:
Well, just the point being, though, that that would be quite a different
function than what seems to be the general nature of Internal Audit.
I notice under Distance Education is
improved program prioritization support by cost benefit analysis. If that is also done in the community
colleges as part of the internal audit, there may be some recommendations along
that line as to what should be offered in an efficient way by one college or
what could be duplicated, what should not be duplicated.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the role of the internal auditor in this issue
of programming would be to ensure that there is a process in place to review
how programming is determined, but the internal auditor, I understand, would
not, in fact, be reviewing that particular program set of offerings to make
that judgment.
Mr. Plohman:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, they would simply be satisfied that there is
such a process.
* (1450)
Mrs. Vodrey:
The auditor would look at that process, make sure there was a process in
place and make sure it was, in fact, a viable and a reasonable process.
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I wanted to thank the minister for tabling
these and to ask, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a further question as to why the
minister believes that such reports can only be tabled at Estimates time?
Mrs. Vodrey:
As we discussed the last time we talked about providing this
information, this information is used in terms of our internal management. It is not an evaluation of government policy,
and I know that the member is particularly interested in an evaluation of
government policy which is, again, part of the discussion which we will have
during the Estimates process, providing small bits of audit reports, summary
excerpts, as I have done here.
I am informed that to provide them
sort of bit by bit does also remove a context for the work and has simply not
been a part of the management practices in the past for our department and when
this member's party was in government also.
Ms. Friesen:
But my question really was quite simple.
The minister has made an assumption that these kinds of reports can only
be tabled or should only be tabled at Estimates time, and so I am asking for
the rationale for that, the reason.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chair, I have just explained it.
Ms. Friesen: I
am sorry, Mr. Deputy Chair, but the minister gave no reason for tying the
relationship between Estimates and the tabling of particular reports.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Again, the member is asking for the tabling of reports. These are not tabled, and we have been over,
over the past several hours, what the practice is, and because there has been a
particular interest in the summary of some excerpts of the Internal Audit
findings, we have provided that today.
However, again, I understand that
the member is particularly interested in an evaluation of government policy,
and to provide a single portion excerpt summary does not allow it to be in
context and, as I said before, this is part of the internal management process
for government at this time.
Estimates does provide the
opportunity for us to discuss the summary, which we have been doing, and to add
that kind of context and that background.
That is what we have been doing in the course of this part of the Estimates
discussion, and, as I said, it provides a context for the reports.
Ms. Friesen:
Again, my question was simple, and the minister is choosing to answer
questions I have not asked.
What we have here is summary
excerpts of audit findings for '92‑93.
They are interesting. I would
like to look at the ones which are late, and I have asked the minister to table
those on completion. She, in her
response, has said that she will only table them at Estimates time.
We have late information here,
comparable to information that she has tabled for other audits, and, again, my
question is very simple. Why will the
minister not table these late audits in the same manner that she has tabled the
others, not the entire audits? She does
not have to go off on a tangent of picking up on particular words I have used,
but Internal Management Audit branch summary excerpts of audit findings, '92‑93,
the two which are still in process, which are late, understandably late, why
will she not make these available?
It seems to me in the interest of
public information, a complete set of public information, I think the minister
can readily understand that when she tables some, but not others, there are
automatically left questions in the mind of the public, and that is really what
I am trying to represent here.
I assume, given the way the minister
has discussed the management of this particular branch, that the minister
herself has not seen these audits, so it cannot be that she is trying to
conceal something, because she has not seen it.
She would not want to conceal something that she has not seen. So the issue must be something
different. What is it?
Mrs. Vodrey:
First of all, let us get the term "conceal" right out of the
way. No effort to conceal whatsoever, so
I am pleased the member agrees there has been no effort to conceal.
Let me correct another difficulty
and another mistake the member has said.
She said they are late. They are
not late, and I think that is important to know. They are not late. They are not completed, but they are not
late. They are in process, and we have
described, when we have talked about the process of internal audit, that these
audits are in process. They are not
late. There was not necessarily the
specific deadline for them to have been completed in time for this particular
line. They are not late.
Thirdly, they are for the internal
use of the department's management. The
member somehow seems to feel there is a public tabling of the internal
management and there is not. What has
been tabled so far for the member is an example of the Internal Audit
findings. These are examples to help the
member understand what an internal audit is.
Ms. Friesen:
Well, they may not be late, but they are not here, and they were voted
on under last year's Estimates.
As I said, I understand there can be
carry‑over in each of these areas, and so nobody is insisting that they
be tabled now, but the minister has said they will be completed within a month,
and so I have asked, again, a very simple question. You have tabled some of these but not
others. So there are automatically
questions left in the mind of the public as to why some are tabled and not
others.
Some are not completed. The minister has said she will not, in fact,
table anything until the next Estimates.
So there must be something in her mind, or in the department's mind,
about the connection between Estimates and the tabling of summary excerpts such
as this, and that was where I started.
Mrs. Vodrey:
The answer remains the same.
There needs to be an element of context to what has been provided. The element of context has come through the
process of the Estimates discussion.
Ms. Friesen:
The question of context is an important one, I agree, and we certainly
have had much discussion on context here.
I assume that the context dealing with the process and the nature of the
Auditor's questions will apply equally to these sections that have not been
tabled and which have not been completed at this time.
So, in fact, I think the public and
the opposition are quite capable of taking that context and applying it to
these excerpts when they are tabled, when they are completed. So, again, I ask the minister on behalf of
the public why she is tabling some but not others? Will she now make that commitment to make
these available publicly when they are completed?
* (1500)
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the answers remain the same.
The member is looking for an
accountability of programming in a political sense. Those will be for discussion, again, during
the Estimates process and in Question Period and at other opportunities. These are internal audits. They are for the use of the department. What we have provided is summary of
information so that it will help the member understand what are the issues that
are covered by an internal audit. The
information which is provided is to assist the department in terms of our
management process.
We have spoken about the issue of
context. The answers do remain the
same. The internal auditor will decide
when she has collected sufficient information and sufficient evidence before
she expresses her opinion. Then she will
express it, and we will look at what has been provided in a total context.
Ms. Friesen:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it leaves questions in my mind, and I think the
minister can understand that. It leaves
questions as to perhaps the date of completion.
Has there been an error made in the date of completion? Is it that it is not going to take a month,
it might take longer? If so, that is
quite understandable. The minister could
say that, and we would look for access to similar kinds of information upon
completion. Is that the issue?
An Honourable Member: Could be cutbacks.
Ms. Friesen:
Could be.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member may not have straight in her mind
exactly what we are voting on in this appropriation.
In this appropriation we are voting
on the office of the internal auditor.
We are not voting on the specific programs in which she is asking for
information. Those programs will be
discussed under the budgetary lines, under the Estimates line within the
discussion of Estimates.
What we have tabled for her is not
for specific discussion of that particular program. What we have tabled for the member is samples
of information that the internal auditor would provide. It is important for her
to know that we are looking at the work of the internal auditor. The samples of the information simply serve
to illustrate to the member what the work of the internal auditor is.
She seems to have some confusion
about what will be tabled under this particular appropriation and why it would
be.
Ms. Friesen:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister does keep talking about program and
assumes that I am asking questions about program. In fact, I am not asking questions about
program at this stage. Indeed, I have
asked questions like that in Estimates before.
I have asked those in Question Period.
What I am asking now remains
essentially on this line, Internal Management Audit branch. I am concerned that there are sections which
have not yet been completed which are of concern to me. I am concerned, given the kinds of things
which are examined under the audit branch, the issues of management; as I look
at some of these other things, consistency, departmental reporting mechanism,
those kinds of things, I am very much interested in that for the labour
management strategy.
I am very concerned that the
minister is choosing not a selection of completed excerpts, she is in fact
tabling excerpts from every single one that has been completed. There are two that have not been completed
that she is refusing to table upon completion, and that is what concerns me.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the answer is the same for the member. When we get to the labour market area, I know
she will have a number of questions that she would like to ask, and I am sure
that we will explore that area quite thoroughly.
At the moment, we are voting on the
appropriation for the audit of the internal auditor and so we are looking at
what kinds of work the internal auditor does, and we have by way of example of
that work provided some summary information.
This line is not to provide for the member particular evaluations of
programs which she would want to look at under that budget line. There is a real distinction in terms of what
is to be provided in this particular area.
This line is to look at the role of the internal auditor.
Ms. Friesen:
Yes, and the role of the internal auditor is exactly what we are looking
at. It is exactly the questions I have
been asking and which the minister now for some time has been refusing to
answer. They are very simple questions. It is not a selection that you have chosen to
table. You have tabled, as I understand
it, every single completed one, a summary excerpt from it. There are two which are not completed and the
minister is refusing to table those on completion. That is my concern.
What is the link between Estimates
and tabling? I do not think there is one. Documents can be tabled at any time and
frequently are. We have now discussed
the context here. That context can be
carried over both in written form and in our own understanding to the reading
of whatever it is that the minister chooses to table as a summary excerpt of
these completed audits.
Mrs. Vodrey: I
know that the record will show that I have answered all the questions of the
member and that there has not been a refusal or a reluctance. I certainly rest with the fact that the
record will show that.
Now, she is asking for information
which, as I have said, first of all, is not ready. We are again here to discuss the office of
the internal auditor. We are not in this
budget line here to discuss the findings of each area that the internal auditor
has examined. We are not here to look
specifically at those findings. We can
look, when we get to that budget line, in great detail at the particular
programs and at accountability within the programs or the questions that the
member wishes to ask. On this line, we
are again looking at the office of the internal auditor.
Now she points to the information
which has been tabled. Yes, I have tabled information regarding summary excerpt
information that the Internal Auditor has provided by way of showing the member
the kind of work that the Internal Auditor does, so she will be able to
understand the work of the Internal Auditor.
However, when we get to the programming, the member may wish to ask
other questions at that time.
Ms. Friesen: I
want to turn to Workforce 2000, which is something which is being conducted
this year. We did have some preliminary
discussion about this at the end of last time.
The minister, I believe, at that
time said that‑‑I am quoting from page 3468, May 27, and I was
asking about the relationship between the Provincial Auditor and the
departmental auditor, and the minister said:
" . . . the Provincial Auditor has begun work . . . ", but you
have not yet received a report or information on the scope of that work on
Workforce 2000. "The Provincial
Auditor does not report to the department." So you are looking for information to come
regarding the scope of their work and then the department will be looking, and
I am interpreting here, at areas which are not covered by the Provincial
Auditor.
It is that procedure that I am
looking at here. I did ask of the
Provincial Auditor, earlier this year, March 4, how she was going to proceed
with the audit of Workforce 2000. She
gave me, I think, probably, a partly speculative answer, and I will read
that. It is from page 22, March 4, '93.
* (1510)
She strongly supports in her office
using a steering committee of people within the department. In this case, she said, it would be those
people actually delivering the Workforce 2000 programs, somebody within the
Department of Education, possibly Department of Finance, with experience in
applying the effectiveness framework, and ourselves, and using a steering
committee to set criteria which has many benefits, because that in itself allows
all of the interested parties, who are later going to have to implement our
recommendations and who have to buy into our recommendations for them to have
any value, to have input upfront in determining, once we do our audit, what
would constitute good management or good delivery of the program. It is a relatively new approach, I gather,
and one that the Provincial Auditor takes some pride in.
I wonder, in that context, how to
evaluate the minister's version of what is going to happen here, because as I read
from that earlier statement, what I understood from it was, and it may be that
we had not had time to get into this, that the Provincial Auditor was going to
do their audit, and then what had not been covered would be covered by the
department. Now I get the sense, when I
go back and look at what the Provincial Auditor had said to me, that there was
a much more holistic perspective, that it was a provincial audit to be
developed by a steering committee.
Now, these two things may not be
necessarily mutually exclusive, but I would like to get it straight, what is
happening, who is doing what. If there
is a steering committee, has it been set up, and who is setting essentially the
framework for discussion?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chair, the Provincial Auditor may be having a steering
committee. That is obviously what she
reported to the member in her discussion at Public Accounts, I believe it was.
Our internal auditor is not a part
of that steering group. Our internal auditor has informed me, as I informed the
member the day previous when we discussed this, that we will be waiting for the
report of the Provincial Auditor, we will see what has been covered by the
Provincial Auditor, and because we would like to have a full review, then we
will look at covering any areas which have not been covered by the Provincial
Auditor, then we will look at covering that by our own internal audit.
Ms. Friesen:
Can the minister tell us whether that steering committee has been set up
and who from the department is serving on it? 0 Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy
Chair, I am informed that again the Provincial Auditor does not specifically
consult with our department so we do not know the status of that audit at this
time.
Ms. Friesen: But
the Provincial Auditor said in fact that she would be consulting and setting up
a steering committee, so I am assuming that it simply has not happened yet.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Again, the Provincial Auditor would not come to the Department of
Education, would not come to the deputy minister and ask about setting up the
steering committee. That auditor would
simply call the people that she wanted to have available to her. We do not have any reports yet, and that
information may now have to come from the Provincial Auditor.
Ms. Friesen:
But presumably the minister would know when somebody in her department
was in fact sitting on a steering committee with the Provincial uditor. All I am asking is simply has that begun yet?
I am concerned that we may run into exactly
the same difficulties we are running into now with audits which are not
completed within the fiscal year in which they are assigned, and that the
minister then decides not to provide any information on those audits for
essentially two years.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chair, the steering committee could be a very informal
one. We do not know. The Provincial Auditor would be the person
who would be able to discuss exactly the time frame, exactly the process, and I
am not sure if the member is suggesting that somehow the Provincial Auditor is
dragging her feet and not providing the information in the time frame that the
member wishes it to be provided. Those
questions are in fact ones which I think she would like to put to the
Provincial Auditor.
Ms. Friesen:
Well, as the minister knows, I did speak to the Provincial Auditor, and
what I got back from the Provincial Auditor was that they would be working with
the Department of Education, and all I am simply asking the Minister
responsible for the Department of Education is whether that process has begun?
Mrs. Vodrey: I
am informed that the audit has begun, but in terms of the process, that process
would have to be discussed with the Provincial Auditor.
Ms. Friesen:
The record will, I hope, show that we do have some concerns about the
completion of this within the fiscal year wherever the responsibility
lies. I think it is an area where people
are most interested in knowing some of the management practices there.
I wanted to move on to New Careers,
and to ask the minister if that will be done entirely within the department and
what the timing and process of that will be?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chair, the audit for New Careers has not started yet, and it
will be an audit conducted by our internal audit with our own process.
Ms. Friesen:
Will it be looking at all aspects of the New Careers program, and will
it have a longitudinal framework that is more than the past year?
Mrs. Vodrey: The
audit will follow the standard audit process, and it will examine, as I have
described have been examined in the other audits, management processes,
legislative and administrative requirements and the financial reporting and
controls.
Ms. Friesen:
Is the evidence taken from a period of one year, two years, three years,
four years, or is it taken essentially as a slice of what exists exactly at the
moment the audit is done?
* (1520)
Mrs. Vodrey: I
am informed that the information is taken based on what is determined necessary
by standard practice and by what has been revealed during the process.
Ms. Friesen: I
am not an accountant so I am not sure what is meant by standard practice, so
that is what I am getting at. When you are evaluating a program, for example
like New Careers which has been in existence for a number of years, do you go
from the time of the last audit, or is there a standardized number of years
which are taken to look at the practices?
Mrs. Vodrey:
In terms of what the audit does and how the audit proceeds, the focus is
on a review and an appraisal of the adequacy of the managerial process, systems
and the controls. It does not mean
starting at the end product of performance nor auditing the results.
During the course of the audit, the
auditor may draw some conclusions as to how the organization is performing as
far as results indicating the effect of management practices and controls.
While the auditor is assessing
management practices, the auditor is not assessing management nor measuring the
results. That is beyond the role of the internal audit which is to report on
the adequacy of the management systems.
I am informed that usually you go
one year back, the current year and the year in progress.
Ms. Friesen:
My question was not to do with outcome which the minister continually
wants to raise. My question was range of
evidence.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Again, when I answered the member a moment ago, the answer is the
same. The information is usually
gathered from the previous year, the current year and the year in progress, and
based upon the audit and the audit standards, that then determines what
information or evidence is reasonable.
Ms. Friesen:
Could the minister tell us what special audits or claim certifications
and follow‑ups were done in the past year?
Mrs. Vodrey: I
am informed that for the federal government there was a cost certification for
the ACCESS programs for INAT. There was
cost certification for the Manitoba School for the Deaf; there was Manitoba
Technical Training Centre, a revenue audit; there was core certification
contracted out, but it was under the direction of Internal Audit; there was
Finance and Administration Branch; there were revenue systems and procedures
review; and there was special review of the PSFB capital facility staff.
Ms. Friesen: I
was not quite sure which ones were required by the federal government. There was a heading, Federal Government, and
then there was a long list. So where did
the list stop?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Just the first one: the cost certification
ACCESS programs INAT. I beg your pardon,
School for the Deaf was also required by the federal government.
Mr. Plohman:
Just one question. Was there any
special assignments other than the ones that were mentioned that were
undertaken by the Internal Audit staff?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that there were perhaps two or
three others. They were of a very
confidential nature, and some had to do with staffing issues.
Mr. Plohman:
So is this something done in conjunction then with Personnel, the Human
Resource branch?
Mrs. Vodrey:
In February '91, the Internal Management Audit branch of Manitoba
Education and Training did conduct a special audit investigation pertaining to
unusual and questionable arrangements between an employee and a local truck
driver training company. That audit did
involve also the Human Resource area, and it also involved the RCMP.
Mr. Plohman:
Was that as a result of complaints from the individual involved, or was
that as a result of complaints brought to the minister's attention from other
MLAs?
* (1530)
Mrs. Vodrey:
Again, this is an extremely confidential matter. In answer to the
member's question, overall, I can say that information comes from a number of
sources for a number of reasons.
Mr. Plohman: I
think we are certainly aware of this particular instance, and without
mentioning names of company or employee who was complaining or others that may
have complained, I think it is important for us to know whether there has been
any significant action taken on this situation.
In other words, the minister mentioned the RCMP. Have there been charges laid, or has it not
progressed that far?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, our understanding is that the trial is still
pending.
Mr. Plohman: Does
the minister routinely ask for intervention by Internal Audit when complaints
come forward from the public with regard to complaints about the operation of
particularly private companies involved in training‑‑we are using
that example?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, each situation is assessed individually. Again, if it is strictly a personnel matter,
then we do look at consulting with Human Resource and also the civil service. Where there is a financial matter, we also
provide consultation with the Provincial Auditor, with the Justice system,
perhaps Finance also.
Mr. Plohman:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, was there any involvement by the internal
auditor in the Tuxedo Taxi issue?
Mrs. Vodrey:
No, there was no involvement by the internal auditor in this. It was handled by the staff in the private
vocational area who conferred directly with Justice.
Mr. Plohman:
Why would that have been handled differently than another situation that
the minister mentioned regarding a special audit by the Internal Audit staff?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, because in that case there is a Private
Vocational Schools Act. As a result of
that act, there is also an administrator.
That administrator has the mandate to manage that particular area. That person, as I said, did confer with
Justice.
Mr. Plohman:
The minister mentioned two or three others. Was it two or three or more that were
audited? Did these come under the
Workforce 2000 program?
Mrs. Vodrey:
There were three, none of those in connection with Workforce 2000.
Mr. Plohman:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just to clarify for the record, the minister is
saying that she has had no need, as far as she could see, to have Internal
Audit get involved with any training being offered by private companies through
Workforce 2000.
Mrs. Vodrey:
The answer is no.
Mr. Plohman:
Could the minister indicate, the Public Schools Finance Board capital
facilities audit, was that done for the operations for capital facilities
throughout the province or in certain school divisions or what was the major
objective there?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in that matter, it was a personnel matter.
Mr. Plohman: I
understood when she gave the information about some special audits, it was PSFB
capital facilities. So this was an
employee in PSFB capital facilities.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, because the final word in that description
was "staff."
Mr. Plohman:
Okay, and this was an instance of staff involvement perhaps
inappropriately with contractors, or was this something to do with the school
division?
Mrs. Vodrey:
As the member knows, this is an internal personnel matter and these are
very confidential matters.
Mr. Plohman: I
just remind the minister, that is why we were not asking the name of the
individual and the particular infractions or problems associated. We simply asked whether it involved an
outside company or whether it involved a school division.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, I would say to the member that this is an
extremely small area, and we want to be very careful not to jeopardize any
individual who may or may not have been involved in this particular issue.
* (1540)
Mr. Plohman:
So the minister is saying then if she were to tell us whether it
involved the relationship with the employee and a school division versus a
private company, that would be telltale in terms of whom the individual
was. I find that rather hard to believe.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Again, I would remind the member of the very confidential nature of this
work, and that the line we are on is to look at the role of the internal
auditor. At this point, it really would
be unfair to provide further information on that specific case.
Mr. Plohman:
Then I will just ask the minister whether all three of these specific
audits involving employees were initiated as results of complaints brought to
the minister and initiated by the minister, or were these routinely initiated
by senior staff?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item (e)(1) Salaries $903,800‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $177,800‑‑pass.
1.(f) Management Information
Services (1) Salaries $531,100.
Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was just rather
intrigued by the Activity Identification and Expected Results. Does the minister need to bring forward staff
to discuss this? Maybe we will just wait
for a minute while this happens.
Mrs. Vodrey: I
would just like to take the opportunity to introduce Mr. Greg Baylis, who is
the director of the Management Information Services.
(Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in
the Chair)
Mr. Alcock: I
wonder, to begin with, if the minister could just give us a sense of what
exactly they mean when they are talking about management information
systems. Are these internal to the
department? I note in an expected result
here they talk about data, image and voice transmission on a wide area network. I would like just to get a sense first of the
boundaries of this. Is this something that just exists within the department,
or is this a network that eventually involves schools, colleges and
universities?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in this particular area, it is for
department‑wide support. It
provides day‑to‑day maintenance and consultative support for all
operational information systems K‑12 within the department. It also includes the development and
maintenance of a variety of computer‑based applications for Advanced
Education and Skills Training, Distance Education and Technology, schools
education information system and other divisions of the department.
The particular management
information system, which I have spoken about in terms of managing information
that comes specifically from school divisions, is the education information
system discussed on another line and is not included in this particular line.
Mr. Alcock: I
would just like to first‑‑can I get an idea of what the capacity of
this system is then? This is an in‑house
management information system for the use of the department, presumably senior
management, in making some operational and policy decisions. It mentions data. Would there be, for example, within the
department a record for every student in the province?
Mrs. Vodrey:
No, we do not have that now. That
is the new system which we are looking to put into place so that we will have a
more effective tracking system.
Mr. Alcock:
Would there be rolled‑up information in this system, for example,
the number of students in a particular school or by school?
Mrs. Vodrey:
We are having a little trouble hearing the member. If he could speak up,
or perhaps we could use the earphones.
The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): The honourable member for Osborne, would you
speak up please?
Mr. Alcock: I
do not know if I can get any closer to this instrument that I have here, but
perhaps somebody could turn a knob or a dial someplace. My wearing an ear piece is not going to help,
but perhaps somebody else could.
All I am trying to sort out is, the
department claims here to have a management information system, and I am just
interested in how they arrive at that conclusion. I would like to know what kind of information
they are managing. There is a whole
series of yes‑no kinds of questions I could ask here, but let me just lay
a few of them out right now.
I would like to get some sense of
what kind of information currently resides within this data that is listed here
as being in the possession of the department so we can make management
decisions.
For example, if we were to query
this system, would we find out how many children are in a particular grade in a
particular year? Would we find out, by
age and sex, information about the kids, or would we just find rolled‑up
information; for example, how many children are in a particular grade in the
entire province or in a school division.
That is one category of information I would be interested in knowing.
I would also like to know whether or
not this system includes a commitment accounting system of some sort, both
internal to department operations, and whether it tracks any financial
information, and when I am asking for external information, I am looking for
school divisions, colleges, the universities, et cetera, first just trying to
identify some of the boundaries and kinds of information.
The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): The honourable member really put a lot of
questions on the record, and I am not sure whether we are going to have to
reread the record in order to be able to catch all the questions, but maybe we
can ask him to requestion them later if the honourable minister does not have
the adequate responses.
Mr. Alcock:
Thank you, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. I am certain that this will not be necessary,
but I felt that rather than ask a whole series of little questions, we will see
what the minister and her staff can come back with. We will eventually get there. We have lots of time.
The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Thank you, sir.
Mrs. Vodrey:
The MIS branch exists solely in a support role for programs that are
offered throughout the department. It
includes what has been termed reactionary support for numerous ad hoc
information requests, and also statistical analyses generated throughout the
year, along with several planned systems initiatives.
Currently, major production systems
that are supported‑‑and again, I stress, it is a number of systems‑‑are
library systems, and they are separate in the Instructional Resources Branch,
both English and French. Then there is
also professional school personnel; then student records for the Independent
Study Program; student academic records, Grades 10 through 12; student
enrollment grants systems, which are separate in both the public schools
finance area and in BEF. It also includes
GED, and also basic electronic mail and messaging services.
* (1550)
In the professional schools
personnel, which I spoke about as the second area of information, we have
information which is virtually a snapshot by teacher in terms of enrollment as
of September 30, and that is on the K‑12 side. We do not have that information for colleges
and for universities. We do not have an
ongoing tracking system through this system of numbers of children in each
grade, but we are moving to a more comprehensive tracking system, which we will
be able to discuss under that specific appropriation.
I am also informed that we do not
have the specific accounting system which the member has asked about. We are able to track our mainframe
expenditures, but not commitments.
Mr. Alcock:
Just to come back to accounting in a minute then. The minister mentioned
student academic records 10‑12. Presumably, these records include the
name or some identifying information on the individual student plus their
performance or pass‑fail or some sort of indication as to whether or not
they have completed the requirements for the various grades?
Mrs. Vodrey:
In terms of the student academic records, at the moment, our system, to
deal with the most up‑to‑date information, would have to be done
manually, but we are looking at our new information system, which we were
talking about for the more comprehensive tracking of students then, to have
that brought up to date and available on a computer system.
Mr. Alcock:
Let me just deal with that one final piece. The minister has mentioned that there is some
program in place that is going to allow them to be more specific about the
information they collect on the students, and she says that is not dealt with
by this group. It is dealt with someplace
else in the budget. Could she direct me to where that might be?
Mrs. Vodrey:
It is under the appropriation 16.5 (c) that the information that we will
be collecting regarding more comprehensive student tracking would be found.
Mr. Alcock: I
thank the minister for that. We will
leave all of that until we get there.
I am interested in the sense that
this department has a management information system. Presumably, that is meant to imply that
somehow information is collected and manipulated in some way that allows people
to use it in making management instead of operating decisions. I would just like to get a sense of how that
is done within this department.
The minister is saying that we have
no quantitative information on students below the Grade 10 level, but,
presumably, if I understood her previous answer right, we could ask the
question of this system: How many
students were enrolled in Grade 10 last year, or how many students completed
Grade 10? Am I misunderstanding? Would
that only be done on paper right now?
That would require a manual search of some sort?
Mrs. Vodrey: I
would just draw the member's attention to the name of the appropriation, which
is Management Information Services. It
is not specifically system. The
important part there is that we are continuing to develop a system. This talks about the kinds of service that
are presently provided.
In terms of what we are able to look
at now regarding our students and exactly what grade they are in, we rely, as I
said, on the professional schools personnel, which is a snapshot that occurs
September 30. We are not able to provide
information on a daily basis regarding students and their grade placement and
their particular attendance. We are not
able to provide, under this current services appropriation, information on
achievement or on migrancy. However,
that has been the point of moving to the new educational information system and
service in which we will be able to keep a much closer track on individual
students and where individual students are in attendance and their grades of
attendance and so on.
Mr. Alcock: I
thank the minister for that. So, when we
are talking about this group, these 11 professional staff, they are engaged
somehow in collecting information, not necessarily electronically held
information, but collecting information from the department, for the use of the
deputy minister and the minister in "the development, implementation, and
ongoing operational support of department information processing systems in a
secure environment."
The one piece of information we have
is that they are not electronically based.
Still they do collect information, but they cannot tell us quantitative
information about what is happening in the system. I guess, just a side question, why is it
1993, and we are just at this level? Has
there been a problem in the department in the past? I do not want to hold this minister
accountable for it. I am not trying to
pin anybody down here. I just would like
to know: What are the impediments in
what is presumably an intelligently managed department to putting in place some
basic recordkeeping in an electronic form that would allow you to do some of
this?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in terms of why it has taken such a long time,
the schools' environment itself was not one which was able to provide
information electronically and we had to look for a compatibility with the
schools' environment. There has been a
great deal of progress in the past 18 months, and we certainly look for much
more rapid progress within the next 18 months to two years.
* (1600)
We do have some statistical
analysis, and we do have some electronic data gathering. I would point to the library, for instance,
as one area in which there is electronic data gathering. We have also spoken about teacher
demographics and student demographics, but, as I said, those are at one point
in time at the moment. With the new
system, we look to have a more dynamic series of reference points in terms of
all those areas of students, teachers, numbers, migrancy, achievement, and so
on.
Mr. Alcock:
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I suppose this is maybe an awkward
question to ask and one that the minister may prefer to refer me to staff at
some other point, but it just strikes me as odd that‑‑has it been a
particularly parsimonious Treasury Board before 1988, if the minister would
like, that has led us to this? It just
strikes me that this is a field in which some proper data collection would be
very beneficial.
I give the minister credit for
recognizing that and moving to develop such a system. But was it simply a matter that the schools
were developing their own systems and they are much further ahead and there is
some difficulty in the protocols for amassing information, or was it a lack of
willingness on the part of schools to share information with government?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is very difficult for me to speak to
what this situation was in the past. I
am not able to do that.
I can say that in the past 12 months
I am informed that the additional movement ahead that we have made is the
electronic transfer of our financial data, and that this branch itself is only
two years old. Some of our staff, I
understand, have been in the branch for approximately six months.
However, as I said, we are moving
ahead. There is a readiness on all
fronts now, including the schools, to look at providing this information and to
use this particular service, Management Information Services area, to a much greater
extent. Now it is a matter of moving what was previously done manually and by
hand and now get it into the system.
Mr. Alcock: I
can just lay out a couple of things that might help us move through this more
quickly. I was kind of pleased when I saw
this last line here: "Integration
of all information technology systems (existing and new) under a wide area
departmental information network which supports data, image and voice
transmission." That is a very
farsighted goal.
In looking at how organizations
develop management information systems, and that is a word I think that gets
misused often, as opposed to simple transaction processing systems. I mean, when the minister brings forward a
library system, it strikes me that is a system that simply provides you a query
service to know whether or not a book is available and/or whether it is in the
collection and/or whether it is in or out of circulation, as opposed to
something that brings together information on a program that you are operating,
that marries it with some information from another body of information, for
example, a financial system, and allows you to develop an overview of what is
happening with the new department and make some decisions then that may allow
you to make more efficient use of resources or it may make truly management
systems. I mean, a library system in and
of itself or an accounting system in and of itself is not necessarily a
management information system. It is the
combining of information across these systems that puts the manager in a
position to make some decisions.
That is why the area networks have
been brought more and more into use‑‑to allow people to begin to
integrate information across responsibilities.
If I understood what I have heard to date, it is that we have some paper
systems‑‑and we will leave student records out of this completely
because they are going to come in the future.
We the government, the minister or the Finance minister, somebody writes
a cheque to a school division and the school division at some point says, we
have so many students at a particular point in time, and, as a result of that,
the department generates a cheque to that school division. Is any of that information processed in any
way, or is that simply one page that comes in and says, we have 1,000 and we
need X amount of money?
Mrs. Vodrey:
The funds that the member is speaking about are electronically
transferred. That is what we moved to
last year. In terms of the other areas that the member is speaking about, it is
where we want to be; it is where we are moving toward. So, as I have said in the past year, we are
in the process of doing the financial area.
We now electronically transfer funds, and the other areas which we have
touched on, yes, that is the place where we do want to be.
Mr. Alcock:
Could the minister just explain the electronic transfer? Are we talking about a system as they have at
the University of Manitoba, a purchasing system, where you simply request
something out of a selected menu and the accounts are credited as a result of
that exchange, or does somebody have information in a machine in a school
principal's office or a superintendent's office, and they send an electronic
signal to the department and the department, therefore, generates a crediting to
an account somehow? I am sorry, I am not
sure of what you mean by electronic transfer of funds.
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the
Chair)
Mrs. Vodrey:
The system is driven by information by our own grants system. Then the transfer is made automatically to
the bank for that particular school division, and all grants monies, as I have
said, are transferred to bank accounts.
They are preprogrammed by the department. In terms of the approval basis, if that is
what the member is asking, the actual approval has to go through the normal
government process but, then, when the approval is provided and we know, based
on the funding formula, for instance‑‑so the total dollar amount is
what is approved by government.
Our staff certainly go out and they
work with the individual school divisions to look at the amount of money that
will flow from the formula and from all areas into that particular school
division. Then there is a preprogramming
done by the department and then the money is automatically transferred.
Mr. Alcock:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this sounds more like it is an automated deposit
system to a bank account as opposed to an electronic transfer of funds. Is that all we are talking about?
* (1610)
Mrs. Vodrey:
In terms of gathering of the information, to begin with, a formatted
diskette is sent out. The school
divisions, based on the information required on that diskette, provide
information. It is that information
which then determines the grant to the school division. Then that information comes back to the
department and again parameters are determined, and then the money can flow.
Mr. Alcock:
Rather than sending out a paper form of some sort, a formatted diskette
is sent out? Is it a Lotus program,
Excel? Is it some sort of spreadsheeting program, that they are just asked to
fill in the blanks of some sort?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Formatted to a spreadsheet.
Mr. Alcock:
Are these things Zippered back and forth or are they transferred? You said a diskette is sent out. Is the diskette then sent back?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that the diskettes are sent by
courier and received by courier.
Mr. Alcock:
It is kind of like sending a high‑quality product by Pony
Express. I guess we no longer have Pony
Express here, do we? Is there an
intention to link these systems up? Is
there any reason why that is not done?
Mrs. Vodrey: I
am informed that the school divisions themselves have felt that there would be
very little benefit to themselves, if any, to do that, and at the moment, the system
appears to be working satisfactorily for both parties.
Mr. Alcock: I
am certain that it is, although it strikes me it is only one step above
paper. What kind of information is
requested on these diskettes anyway?
Mrs. Vodrey:
The information that is transferred is very comprehensive. It involves information such as numbers of
students, numbers of special needs students, the dollar needs of the division.
It is everything that the school
division might require for the school funding through the school funding
formula. It would involve information
such as transportation requirements, kilometres, numbers of teachers and so on.
Mr. Alcock:
Numbers of students by grade?
Mrs. Vodrey: For
the funding formula, we do not require the number of students by grade; we
require the number of students.
Mr. Alcock:
So that there is no capture by grade information. When we see reports of
students by grade in the annual report, where is that information generated?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we get some information through another system,
that professional school personnel. In
terms of the numbers of students by grade in this system, we are in the process
of setting that up electronically, but at the moment right now we receive it by
recap and it is done manually.
Mr. Alcock:
So, at some point in the year, you said that on a diskette you get
information back that allows you to make a determination of the school's
financial needs; it is a major determinant of the numbers of students in
special‑‑
Mrs. Vodrey:
Excuse me. I would just like to
clarify that as a school division as opposed to a specific school.
Mr. Alcock: I
assume from that comment, and you can answer this just by nodding, that schools
that are not broken out of that are just simply‑‑it is a division‑wide
request. So the division comes in and
says, we need this, and you evaluate that in some way. You make a decision as to what you are going
to transfer.
Does that process take place any
other time during the year? I mean, do you have anything on outcomes? Do you send out a second diskette that asks
for some reporting back at a different point in the year or is this a once a
year let us figure out how much money you want?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that school divisions may provide
some revisions to what they send during their budgeting process. However, when the budgeting process is final,
then it becomes a final amount which then we would look at funding.
However, we do allow some updates in
the area of special needs students, for instance. Then at the end of the year, we receive an
audited statement from the school divisions electronically which then we were
allowed to use and that becomes the accountability and the finalization at the
end of the year.
Mr. Alcock:
Is this audited statement transferred the same way, a formatted disk
that goes out, and then there is some sort of attestation to it by an
independent auditor?
Mrs. Vodrey:
They send in the statement electronically, but they also send in hard
copy.
Mr. Alcock:
And some reconciliation statement and then you work that out in future
years. Okay.
Perhaps, just to move on, the
professional schools personnel system then, can you tell me a little bit of
what is contained in this?
* (1620)
Mrs. Vodrey:
This professional school personnel provides demographic information on
each teacher and principal. It is
provided in two parts: a part (a), which gives information on the people
involved; and part (b), which gives information about the workload and the
percentage of time spent within each area of the workload so we would be able,
for instance, to find out as of this one time, September 30, this one date, the
number of girls in an English 300 course, for instance. The Part A segment, which is the people
segment, does undergo updates through the year, as there might be a change in
personnel, but Part B is done one time in the year.
Mr. Alcock:
Is this collected in the same fashion, some sort of formatted instrument
goes out?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at the moment we send out formatted
diskettes. They are prefilled out, and
divisions then update that particular diskette.
As of September 30 in the coming
year, the school year beginning '93, where divisions have this computer
ability, we will be able to take this information directly from their existing
computer area, so there will be an electronic interface. I understand that Winnipeg 1 would be a
division in which that could be accomplished as of September 30, 1993.
Mr. Alcock:
Presumably, when this information is collected, it is grouped by
division?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in terms of our storing it and ability to
retrieve, I understand that we will be able to retrieve information by division
but also by school, by teacher, by subject area, by age, by grade and by
gender.
Mr. Alcock:
Is there any relationship or any attempt to relate any of this to any of
the financial information?
Mrs. Vodrey:
At the moment we have not done that.
We have not had the ability to do that, but that is what we look to be
able to do under our new education information system.
Mr. Alcock:
Is there work done within this Management Information Services group to
look at similarities or differences between schools or divisions?
Mrs. Vodrey:
At the moment, I am informed, we are not able to do that, but certainly
in the future we look to be able to provide that type of analysis. At the moment, our information is now stored
in a number of different places, and so it has been very difficult to do
that. What we are looking for is to move
towards an integration.
(Mrs. Shirley Render, Acting Deputy Chairperson,
in the Chair)
As we moved into this system, we did
look across our department, and we looked at what each area of the department
did have, what capability it had, and what systems it had. Now we are looking through our new
informational system to be able to provide in the future much of the integration
that we have been speaking about.
Mr. Alcock:
We have been talking primarily about school divisions, K‑12. Can the minister just give me a sense of what
exists, if anything, on colleges and universities?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Madam Acting Deputy Chair, at the moment the colleges operate under their
own system, and they have within their own system both student and financial
information. They are run by the
colleges and for the colleges. Where we
have required information, we have received it, but it is considered
information for their use.
In the third quarter of this year,
in our Advanced Education and Skills Training area of the department, we are
going to be doing a study. We are going
to be looking at what the requirements are across this whole area of post‑secondary
education and training.
So that particular study should
assist us in looking at how we could be more comprehensive in the information
we have on the post‑secondary side.
Mr. Alcock:
So for management information‑‑leave the universities aside
for a minute, just talk about the colleges‑‑we are looking at a
particular policy question; you would have to go to the colleges, collect that
information. They are the repository of
the information. So there is not an information
system that relates to colleges that is within the current control of the
department?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Madam Acting Deputy Chair, no, there is not within the Department of
Education. We would rely on the colleges
to provide us with that information.
Mr. Alcock:
Is there a similar kind of diskette exchange that takes place at
different points during year that provides information on classes, et cetera?
Mrs. Vodrey:
We do not have that ability right now‑‑that information
right now.
Excuse me, Madam Acting Deputy
Chairperson, when we are talking about an electronic transfer or a computer
transfer, we do have it available on paper.
* (1630)
Mr. Alcock:
Yes, certainly. I mean, I assumed
that you are receiving some information before you write a cheque, although
that might not be the case in all departments.
When we look at what the department
is calling here its management information system, what sort of information is
it dealing with from the colleges?
Mrs. Vodrey:
We do not have yet this full management information system. What we have is Management Information
Services, and that has been the point that we have been looking at so far
today.
Mr. Alcock:
There is a suggestion here, though, that you are gathering information
for the use of management. This is
within the administrative sections of this department, so presumably it is
coming to a reasonably high level in the department, and presumably it is there
for‑‑and maybe I should ask the question. Is this information not
being collected for the use of the senior departmental managers and the deputy
minister and the minister?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Again, I am informed that the information is available but more by, in
looking at the Estimates, budget line. There has not yet been a completely
integrated management system. The
information therefore is for use more by program rather than, as the member has
been speaking about, in terms of a total overall policy development from this
particular budget line.
Mr. Alcock:
Is it the department's intention to develop such an integrated system?
Mrs. Vodrey:
The education information system will focus initially on the needs of
the K to 12 side, but I did speak about a study being undertaken in the third
quarter for the Advanced Education and Skills Training area, and that will then
look at the needs in that particular area and where we may go from there in
terms of the education information system.
Mr. Alcock:
Is the education information system then being developed simply for the
use of that branch of the department?
Mrs. Vodrey: I
wonder if the member could clarify his question. The term "branch" I
am not sure if he is referring to a wider area or a small area of the division
or the whole department?
Mr. Alcock:
Just to clarify, and maybe I am just expecting too much from the use of
this term Management Information in the Administration and Finance sections
here, but I had thought when I read the Objectives, Activity Identification and
Expected Results that this was an attempt on the part of the department to
bring information together in some location that would then allow management of
the department to make some management decisions, having a wider understanding
of what was happening.
If I understood what the minister
said to me, in response to the past series of questions, it was that there
seems to be an intention towards that but that at the current time such
information that is collected and held is held for the use of‑‑I am
using the word "branch"‑‑but operating divisions as
opposed to the use of the, you know, deputy minister, the ADMs and the
minister. Then all along there has been
reference to this education information system which relates to K to 12. Is this being developed for the use of one of
those divisions as opposed to for the wider use of the minister and senior
management?
Mrs. Vodrey:
The education information system will be for use by the division and by
the whole department. I think that is
looking to move to that integrated use.
In addition, it will also provide information which will be useful to
school divisions as well.
Mr. Alcock:
Just to clarify something else in this Activity Identification, item 3
here, it talks about departmental clients.
Would a departmental client be a school division or a college or a
university or a program like Stevenson?
Is that what you mean when you use the word "client" or are
you talking about internal clients to this particular‑‑I have to be
careful whether I am talking about a branch or a twig or some portion of the
department.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is internal to the department
clients, to the programs within the department‑‑internal to within
the department.
Mr. Alcock:
The role of this to develop and administer technology policies,
procedures and standards to assure cost effective utilization, is there any
relationship with the school divisions, or do each of the school divisions set
up whatever they want and you are forced somehow to relate to them?
To avoid making this overly complex,
this group, as many groups within government, seem to have the responsibility
for ensuring some commonality of systems.
You are saying a policy that we are going to have this kind of
interface, this kind of connectivity, whatever the area is for departmental
clients. Is there a responsibility here
to establish those standards for school divisions, colleges, the university, or
does each one of those external groups set up their own systems and you are
simply forced to relate to them in some way?
Is there an attempt to co‑ordinate those systems?
* (1640)
Mrs. Vodrey:
Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, we do set standards in the area of
financial reporting, which is standardized, and also in the area of reporting
of enrollment. However, we do not standardize in the type of computer equipment
or methodology which school divisions might wish to use, or the colleges.
Mr. Alcock:
If somebody sends back a different diskette, you will accommodate it
within your system, as opposed to expecting them to do it in a certain format?
Mrs. Vodrey:
At the moment, we are able to receive information that is compatible with
IBM and also Macintosh but, with the new EIS system, we expect to be able to
receive information in a variety of formats.
Mr. Alcock:
Down on the expected results:
"Integration of all information technology systems", of all
information technology systems, "(existing and new) under a wide area
departmental information network which supports data, image and voice
transmission." What does that
mean? Let me ask it that way.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Some of the areas that the member has spoken about is in the area of
expected results. It is an area that we
plan to move towards. There are two
areas that need to be considered.
One is the Distance Education
information. The Distance Education task
force has just reported, so we would be looking at, for instance, image and
voice relating to Distance Education.
In addition, there is a provincial
committee which is looking at development for all government departments. The EIS, or the Education Information System,
would be looking at fitting in in terms of a corporate strategy, a provincial
strategy and looking at providing the ability to accommodate both, as I said,
the overall government initiatives as well as the initiative, for instance, of
Distance Education.
Mr. Alcock:
So when we are talking here though about image‑and‑voice
transmission, we are really talking about a video capability for Distance
Education as opposed to an internal Wang connection. The second would be exciting. The first is ordinary.
Mrs. Vodrey:
We are looking at Distance Education in that area.
Mr. Alcock:
Does the department receive support services from the former Manitoba
Data Services that you use? I mean, is
this information kept on the mainframes there?
Are they the server to your systems, or do you have your own systems
internal?
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a very small amount of information from the
Department of Education and Training is in the ISM system. I am informed that there may be some
historical information from the professional school personnel area and also
from the GED area.
Mr. Alcock:
So then the department has a central server capacity of its own, and if
so, what?
Mrs. Vodrey: I
am informed that we operate with three Hewlett‑Packard minicomputers.
Mr. Alcock:
The Wang that is being referenced here, is this part of the Wang system
that is being built around government or is this a separate system internal to
the department? If so, what is the
backbone?
Mrs. Vodrey:
First of all, I am informed that the Department of Education and
Training does not connect to the Wang network, that our document tracking is
done through the
Mr. Alcock:
Was it simply the availability of the mainframes at the
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, originally, service was provided through
Mr. Alcock:
This, the new EIS, is it being built in‑house or is it using one
of the external in‑frames?
Mrs. Vodrey:
The EIS, as I have said, is Hewlett‑Packard, and we will be the
sole operators, the Department of Education and Training, and it will be housed
at our offices at 1181
Mr. Alcock:
In the objectives of this, there is reference to a secure environment, presumably
this just means that there is a level of confidentiality attached to these
systems. How broad is the access to
them?
Mrs. Vodrey:
This will be a closed network. It
is available to departmental users. The
intention is that it will go to all departments and that access will be only
for the Department of Education and Training and through their offices.
Mr. Alcock:
Is there an intention with the EIS to have the schools linked into it?
Just to go a little further, will
they just be linked to provide information or will they be able to query
information?
* (1650)
Mrs. Vodrey:
The intention is, first of all, for the school divisions to provide
information to the Department of Education and Training; however, we also would
see that there would be some information which school divisions would like to
access and need to access, however, their access would be controlled by the
departmental security administration.
Mr. Alcock: I
shall not belabour this any further. I
thank the minister and her staff for taking the time to provide me with some
information on this. I find it quite
interesting frankly.
It is just interesting to note that
as large organizations have automated, the first thing that they have done is
deal with their transaction processing, cheque generation, ledger keeping,
library systems, things that can be easily described as a query and
response. Then a second stage comes
about as they begin to integrate financial information with record information
and allow themselves to make more sophisticated management decisions.
The third, though, that is most
interesting is when they begin to cross boundaries. If I understand the minister from some of the
answers that she has given here, there seems to be an intention to do that, where
they begin to look at the department across some of the internal
boundaries. It is not done very often in
government. Unlike the private sector
which tends to do this rather fluidly and has led to enormous changes in
organizations, government, for some reason, resists doing this, even within
departments. It is probably one of the
biggest hurdles that managers of information face.
I wish you well. I hope it works out for you. I think it holds great promise if you can do
it. It will be tough but‑‑and
I am prepared to let it pass.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1.(f) Management Information Services (1)
Salaries $531,100‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $250,900‑‑pass.
2. Program Development and Support
Services. Consists of programs aimed at
providing leadership and support for educational programs in Manitoba's schools
from Kindergarten to Senior 4 (Grade 12).
Such programs as Curriculum
Services, Native Education, Manitoba School for the Deaf, Child Care and
Development, Instructional Resources, Distance Education and Technology,
Student Support.
Item 2.(a) Division Administration
(1) Salaries $184,600.
Mr. Plohman:
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is a major area of the department and one
that could take some time to explore in detail.
I hope the minister is interested in, and prepared to, provide an
overview initially of, major priorities that she sees in this area at the
present time with the Division Administration, some of the major highlights of
accomplishment and some of the major tasks for the coming year.
I wonder if the minister could give
us a brief overview of those as she sees them.
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Deputy Chair, certainly this is a very important area in the
Department of Education and Training, and we do have a number of initiatives.
As I was saying, we are looking also
at reorganization in the Program Development and Support Services area. We believe that this reorganization in this
part of the department will provide us with some very important, I think,
improvements in the area of the Department of Education and Training. There has been discussion with all of the
directors regarding the reorganization and regarding the rationale for the
reorganization as well and also focussing on the principles of reorganization.
The principles of reorganization, we
will look at, first of all, the need for curriculum improvements and the need
to demonstrate leadership by the department; the establishment of better
databases for decision making, both informal and formal, internal to the
department and external to the department.
We have been discussing a little bit of that in the previous line. Also,
looking at improvements in the services of the department in the area of
support to schools, in the area of instructional strategies, program
development and also school improvement.
We are also looking to establish a
better process for the continuous improvement model of total quality management
in all areas of service delivery as well as in curriculum development,
implementation and program and student assessment. Also, we are looking for more consistent and
better articulated services in the regional areas and a more dynamic role for
the department in both the leadership role and the support role to schools.
In the area of Curriculum Services,
we are looking at the new course, Skills for Independent Living, which is a
compulsory course designed for students.
This particular course will focus on a number of areas and things like
understanding self and conflict management, planning for the future, exploring
careers, time and fiscal management, critical decision making and
entrepreneurship and personal development through an independent research
study.
In addition, we are looking at the
art curricula K to 12, and these guidelines have been seen as exemplary
documents because of a well‑laid‑out program that supports
classroom teachers in the delivery of programs, and the guides integrate the
appreciation of art with the practical experience of students in the media of
painting, drawing and building.
We also have a family life education
unit which teaches facts and encourages the development of skills and attitudes
which contribute to self‑understanding, healthy interpersonal
relationships and successful family life.
It also promotes the development of physical, emotional, social and
intellectual well‑being of students.
Manitoba students also have had the
opportunity to experience some multidisciplinary approaches in the area of
sustainable development, because Manitoba Education and Training has been a
leader in the integration of the concepts of sustainable development into the
curricula K to 12. The principles of
sustainable development, as the member knows, are based on the balance and
dynamic of environment, economy, health of society, and they are blended into
the study of science, social studies and Skills for Independent Living.
In addition, the high school
technology vocational education, this is the introduction of single credits in
the technology vocational area of education, and it is a very innovative
program. It does create a number of wide
opportunities for students and allows all students to at least take that single
credit in the vocational area. I know,
when we sit again, I will continue on with further areas.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The time is now 5 p.m. and time for private
members' hour. I am interrupting the
proceedings of the committee. The
Committee of Supply will resume consideration at 8 p.m.
ENVIRONMENT
Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, please.
Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply is
dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Environment. We are on item 1.(c) Waste Reduction and
Prevention Planning, page 50 of the Estimates manual.
Would the minister's staff please
enter the Chamber?
Shall item 1.(c) pass?
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second
Opposition): Sorry, I did not realize you were waiting for
me. Let us begin this afternoon.
We are still in Waste Reduction and
Prevention Planning, and I must admit to being somewhat confused. I did listen to the minister carefully, and I
did read over Hansard, and I still do not understand why the department has
determined that they no longer need departmental planning services.
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): I think it might well be a case of having to
choose. As I was questioned last week
about setting of priorities, we have indicated that we intend to expand our
abilities to respond under The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act,
and in the days of being unable in any area, and we witnessed a lot of other
areas that are equally or perhaps more sensitive than environment, we have to
allocate our resources very carefully.
While the section, as a particular designation, has disappeared, we are
still able to perform a number of the functions that we did before, and
ultimately, in our judgment, make the best use of the resources that we had
available to us.
The planning function has been centralized,
but we now have our strategic plan in place, and as part of that, the decision
was made to put the emphasis on the operational works and working in areas
other than where the Planning branch priorities have been.
Mrs. Carstairs: That is the answer that I anticipated I would
get from the minister and it is an answer that concerns me very much, because
to me it almost is if this department has said, we have now planned for the
environment. We are state of the art. We
are well into the 21st century and we do not have to do any more planning.
That has to concern me very much
because I would think unlike any other department of government with the
environmental problems that are just barely coming to light now and the
difficulties encountered because of the fragility of our environment, that
nobody ever questioned prior to the last 25 years, that this is the one
department that long‑term planning is absolutely essential.
Yet I get the sense that they have
said, we have done everything. We do not
have to do any more long‑term planning. Am I wrong in that assumption or
is this what the government has really done here?
Mr. Cummings: I
acknowledge that one could come to the conclusion that the Leader of the Second
Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) has arrived at, unless you accept the premise that
I was trying to put forward and the one which I believe is working as well as
responding to some of the day‑to‑day issues, that we are also
making sure that all of our department heads are involved in the ongoing planning
and responsibilities within the department.
(Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting
Chairperson, in the Chair)
It is not‑‑it never was,
as a matter of fact‑‑it never was simply the Planning branch's
responsibility to lay out the work plan for the Department of Environment. In fact, we were starting to develop a
situation‑‑if I can be totally candid with my critics, that we were
starting to develop a situation in the Planning branch where a number of the
initiatives that they had brought forward were continuing to stay in the
Planning branch.
In fact the Planning branch was
starting to continue to accept responsibilities that went much further than
just the developmental and planning aspect of their responsibilities. I point to The Ozone Depleting Substances Act
where our response to radon in many respects the Planning division was hanging
onto that rather than having it get passed into Operations as part of their
regular responsibilities.
So, yes, you could take a very
narrow view of it and say that we‑‑you could try and portray it
that we have somehow neglected to plan for the future. I would say that the opposite is true, that
we have expanded the responsibility of those who were part of the planning
process to begin with, the gentlemen in front of me being particularly part of
that as leaders within the areas of the department.
Mrs. Carstairs: I certainly can relate to what the minister
is saying that the Planning department should not then find itself responsible
for administrating the ideas that they come up with. I think that can be very
dangerous.
At the same time, I think that in a
department that is supposed to be on the leading edge, there should be a think
tank within that particular department that keeps itself apprised of all of the
literature in the environmental field, that examines in some detail new,
sometimes avant‑garde, sometimes wasteless projects; but in order to
determine their wastefulness, one has to examine them. Who is going to do that kind of think‑tank
process for the Department of Environment when those people, whom I presume
have been doing it before, have been cut in half?
* (1430)
Mr. Cummings:
Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would hate to be cheeky and refer to these
gentlemen in front of me as being in the tank, but, in fact, you are looking at
a good portion of our think tank right here.
Remember that we are developing a section within the department which
will be the pollution prevention part of the department which will do a lot of
outreach and a lot of the research that the member is feeling that we need to
continue with.
Plus remember also that the
Department of Environment has a very wide interlinkage with a number of other
departments within government, and that includes the Sustainable Development
Secretariat. We believe that we have
access to an awful lot of expertise both within the department and externally
that will answer our questions.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Acting Chair, I just want to put on the
record, because I do not believe in expanding these Estimates processes any
longer than is necessary, that I have real concerns, and I let the minister
know that. I see extremely large
planning and priorities departments in Education and in Health, and I see a
diminution here within this department.
I think that does not bode well, quite frankly, for environmental policy
for
But the minister himself raised
radon, so perhaps this is an area‑‑this is an interesting one
because I first asked radon questions in the Legislature in 1986. This was not the government of the day, of
course. The minister at the time was one
Gerard Lecuyer, who of course told me I was being alarmist and that I should
not have any concerns about radon whatsoever, but we do have concerns about
radon.
If recent studies are to be
justified, we should have more concern about radon in Manitoba because of its
natural producing ability here in the province than perhaps we should be in any
other part of the country.
Can the minister tell the House if
he is at all looking at the plan which in fact I presented to the last minister
in 1986, that perhaps people who want to get some form of radon protection,
particularly in the building of new houses, but quite frankly putting it in old
houses as well, if there has been any discussions with Hydro, in order to see
if there could not be a buyer pay so much a month for that kind of protection?
Mr. Cummings: I
welcome this question in Estimates, because it is not the kind of question that
one can answer easily in the give‑and‑take of Question Period or
even in press scrums. The fact is that
there is a concern, but there are concerns expressed both ways about the
presence of radon and the importance or the dangers that may or may not be
associated with that.
The response that we have chosen is
one that we would use an informational approach. As the member says, it is new this year. Certainly, for me it was new‑‑or
it was not new, but it was dealt with, in my opinion, about four years ago,
three and a half years ago, when we received further confirmation of the levels
of radon in the Winnipeg area. We
embarked on a print program where we now believe, or at that time believed we
had from the information available one of the best publications to help the
homeowner who wanted to deal with the matter.
I guess the best way of categorizing
it is the discussion that I had with the person who is operating within the
area of ozone mitigation here in the city of Winnipeg and has had some experience
south of the border. Their comment was
that south of the border they set out to scare the hell of everybody, then they
say it is your own problem. I think
there is a little bit of balance part way between that position and the
position that we have here in
The real fact is, and I perhaps did
not respond adequately enough a few weeks ago when this was raised before, that
is that the building code has been changed.
It does take a while to get them changed, and I was unclear whether it
had actually occurred yet.
The repair or the mitigation against
the problem in a building can be very small.
It can be as simple in some buildings as putting in a stopper in the
drain plug that does not allow the movement back into the space. Generally, it does not cost a lot more than
$1,000 at the most if a person were to put in an extensive program.
But the first thing that has to
happen is that one needs to properly measure the amount of radon that is
available in the home. Secondly, I think
something that we are all overlooking in some of this debate is that one needs
to consider the amount of time and exposure that occurs as a result of radon
being in certain parts of the building.
People will argue that workplace regulations call for levels that are
below what can be found in some basements.
The fact is that the activity of a person who is involved in a workplace
may be at a much higher level than it would be in the home.
Even though you might think that
people spend a lot of time in certain parts of the home, in the long run, when
it is checked out, there are wide variations between homes across the province,
first of all in the amount of radon that is available. Two houses side by side of similar vintage
may have very wide ranging results in their tests, and two families living side
by side with similar readings in their basements may live dramatically
different lifestyles in terms of the amount of exposure that they are subjected
to.
Therefore, I have hinged my response
entirely on the educational aspect and one that has to be a rational aspect,
not expose the public to a raft of maybe less than qualified fearmongers out
there, because every salesman‑‑this is not to besmirch every
salesman‑‑could, if he chose, provide some rather misleading
information. So first of all, there has
to be a qualified and quantifiable measurement done of a basement, and then a
person has to make an individual decision.
There is some question about Health
and Welfare studies that have been done.
There is no question about the expert's opinion about exposure, but
there seems to be a tremendous amount of question around cause and effect as a
result of Health and Welfare studies.
Therefore, I have not been out leading, as it were, in terms of trying
to make sure that every one in the province had their basement checked, but we
have mounted and will continue with what I would call an approach that is more
conducive to having people think about the problem and make a decision based on
that.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Acting Chair, the minister did not really
answer my question which was, had he been in touch with Manitoba Hydro with
respect to a program?
Mr. Cummings:
The answer is no.
Mrs. Carstairs: We certainly have tried similar programs with
regard to insulation and with regard to new windows and with regard to other
programs. The minister indicated that
his figure was $1,000. I checked with
some builders. They are giving me a
figure of between $1,500 and $2,000.
This would be for someone with a high level of radon which would
indicate that they needed some work done in the basement to provide a form of
radon shield.
For senior citizens and for those
who are susceptible to unscrupulous salespersons, and I think we are both aware
of that kind of thing, I think a program that could be made available through
Hydro or through another Crown corporation of government, where there would be
some protection for the senior citizen, might be something that the minister
might want to investigate or have his officials examine for the purpose of
whether it is, first of all, realistic, and whether it could be done in a cost‑effective
way with no cost in the long run to either Hydro or to the department, but that
the cost would incur to the individual homeowner, and they would be able to pay
for it with interest over a period of time.
* (1440)
Mr. Cummings:
The Leader of the Liberal Party is correct in terms of what would be the
upper‑level costs, and that was the figure that was given to me. I meant to indicate that there are, however,
some repairs that can be exceptionally low cost. The aspect of using hydro has been
investigated, but no decision has been made in that direction, and I am not at
this point pushing to have them involved in the program.
The experience of the urea
formaldehyde leads to all sorts of nightmares as to how government can get into
programs that are knee‑jerk reactions to information that people at the
time were convinced was correct. I am
not questioning the importance of the issue.
I am questioning the role that government would have to play in a response
to the issue.
Mrs. Carstairs: I noted in his comments to the other critic
that the Ozone Depleting Substances program had now provided for some 5,000
trained air conditioning people in the province. I think that was the number that he
gave. What is happening with regard to
automobiles? When you talk about air
conditioning experts, are you also including vehicle air conditioning in that
program as well?
Mr. Cummings:
That is correct.
Mrs. Carstairs: Is the government monitoring the actual
removal of this ozone depleting substance, and do they have any idea of how
successful the removal of CFCs has been, or how much leg time there still
exists, or whether in fact people are just ignoring it?
Mr. Cummings: I
am told there have been about 100 inspections completed this spring of varying
operations. Because we have had so much
co‑operation with the industry, and you could even indicate I suppose
that it might be somewhat self‑centered on the part of the more highly
qualified operators within the industry, they do have a vested interest in
making sure that this program is run and run properly.
When the member asked before about
how we justify certain costs and expenditure relations within our department
and with other departments of government, we, I think, do take some pride in
the fact that we have been imaginative and sometimes have been criticized for
doing it in terms of how we deliver programs at a low cost and yet still
achieve some pretty significant gains. The Ozone Depleting Substances Act and
the regulation and the training of the managers has all been very closely co‑ordinated
with the industry. The industry has, I
think, given us a good basis for credibility.
Manitoba is 2 percent of Canada's 2
percent of the world potential emissions of CFCs, so while I am proud of the
program and I am very complimentary to the people who organized it and the
industry in working co‑operatively with the department, we have to
recognize that in the end the major benefit will be that we will get people
thinking about it and acting responsibly in how they handle their CFCs. The real impact on the global basis will come
when the more harmful CFCs are removed from the market. This is the unique part, however, about
Manitoba's program, and as much as we encourage through deregulation the
recapture and the recycling of material, this material will probably over the
next year or two, I am convinced, begin to increase in value.
It already has increased a fair bit,
and that will encourage further activity on the part of the industry to
recapture as much as they can, because CF‑12 is the main offender. Production of it ceases in '96, I believe,
and there is a good deal of equipment out there that will have to be thrown
away or rehabilitated if they cannot have access to that particular
material. The price of this material is
going to skyrocket, I believe, at least increase significantly, so we think we
are quite successful.
There is always some question about
a mobile air‑refrigerant system, whether it is in automobiles, tractors
or farm equipment, industrial equipment, any equipment that has a tendency to
be shut down for a period of time. In
fact, when you buy a replacement seal, it is pointed out right on the package
that these seals may leak if they are not rotated and the shaft sits heavily on
one side of them over an extended period of time.
That led a lot of the industry to
say, well, why are we bothering even to regulate them? Why will you not let us top up the
automobile, for example, because they only lose a pound or two and they are
bound to leak? The instructions say,
they probably will.
We have followed the Montreal
Protocol on this, which says, there shall be no topping up. It has caused a fair bit of anger among some
of the backyard jobbers in the province and caused some grief with how MPIC
will, and is, moving to handle the CFCs in their process. Nevertheless, we think that it is operating
adequately and is, in fact, leading to the development of some new technology,
if not here, certainly in other parts of the country as well in terms of
reclamation.
Mrs. Carstairs: Can the minister just very briefly explain
what the national protocols are? I know
that CF‑12s have to be eliminated by 1996. What other protocols are there?
Mr. Cummings: A
little knowledge is dangerous. When I
refer to the Montreal Protocol, that is the basis upon which everything was
written for our act. I do not have a
copy of everything that is involved, but it does speak to the phasing out
internationally of certain chemicals and, certainly, the countries that were
signatories agreed to certain time lines as I recall.
I can get the member a copy of the
Montreal Protocol to be explicit, because I think I could waste a lot of time
trying to answer it.
Mrs. Carstairs: If the minister, in the next few weeks, can
provide that Protocol, that is just fine.
I have no problems with that at all.
I will pass to the member for Radisson.
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Acting Chair, I want to
pick up on questions we were dealing with on Thursday when we were talking
specifically about the tire program that the government has initiated. I appreciate that there is the levy on them
now.
I just want to ask the simple
question, what is the industry having to do differently now? What are the tire manufacturers having to do
differently now that there is this program supposedly based on the idea of
polluter pays? What are they having to
do differently?
Mr. Cummings:
Essentially nothing. The fee and
the program that we have in place kicks in at the wholesale and/or the retail
level in order to have a fund set aside for the reclamation of the tire. That is where the impact is.
Ms. Cerilli:
Why do they not have any responsibility?
Mr. Cummings:
In fact, we are assigning responsibility to them by asking that a fee be
imposed on the tire. We can talk about
polluter‑pay, and certainly that is the principle, but when it comes
right down to it, the consumer ends up paying.
It does not matter what the product
is. If you are talking about adding on a
charge to make sure that it is adequately reflected in the value of the product
in order to take it out of the waste stream, the consumer will make a decision
based on his cost ultimately, but every tire in this province will have a cost.
* (1450)
Ms. Cerilli:
The consumer is paying. They are
paying $3 on a tire and they have been paying this for almost a year now and
that money has gone into a fund and we do not know what it is being used for
yet.
But I am interested especially with the
approach that the WRAP Act is taking, which is supposed to be going through
this longer process rather than just instituting deposits. It is going through this longer process of
consultation, but I am concerned that here we have an industry that is not
being made to bear any of the responsibility for the waste from the product
that they are producing.
Why are they not involved in any way
in the reclamation in the transport or any of those areas where it makes sense
for them to be involved?
Mr. Cummings: I
guess the member and I have a little different approach to how we see the
application of the act and of levies in order to achieve what I am sure are
probably the same ends.
The tire companies or the user‑‑pardon
me, if the member is talking about tire companies and talking about the
manufacturer, then we do not have what you would classify as the primary
manufacturer of tires in the province.
We have retreaders and recappers and, I do not think we have a primary
tire plant in the province.
So it has always been the retailer
who takes back used tires or the consumer who has a tire to dispose of who has
had the responsibility for dealing with it.
By and large, they have landfilled them.
By imposing a fee which the user of
the tire, i.e., the consumer, I think that you might argue about who is the
polluter is this case. If you wish to
extend who is using the product and then getting rid of it, it is the
consumer. But we are talking about
product responsibility. So the value is
added to the product, so we believe we will get it out of the waste stream.
The cost will ultimately always end
up in the consumer's wallet, but we believe that there is significant value in
the tire itself after it has been used, and that will enhance where it
goes. If you wish to ship it back to the
original point of manufacture, I think the cost of the freight would far exceed
the $3 levy that we are imposing.
Ms. Cerilli: I
am not suggesting that. I am suggesting
though, especially since I asked the question the other day and there seemed to
be some sense that no other place had made the retailer responsible, but we are
trying to develop systems where the burden is shared. It seems to me that right now the consumer is
bearing all of the burden, and I want to see if there are any plans for
industry to have some responsibility. I
think that should be the way that we would be going, and that is in keeping
with what the government says that their orientation is toward waste reduction.
Mr. Cummings:
The retailers do take back the old tires today, so the industry is
involved in that respect. I did not
answer your first question earlier about what involvement did the industry have
in the committees that were struck to establish the standards for the RFP and
to help design a program for the province.
We had all of the industry reps and retailers on that committee working
with government to establish what would be a reasonable system to have in
place, so the industry has not been without some responsibility.
Frankly, the industry is quite
competitive. Many people in the industry
have said that crumb rubber cannot be recycled back into new tires. There is a wide diversity of opinion about
that. Then if, in fact, crumb rubber,
once it is manufactured, becomes competitive, which I think it will be for the
return to tires, you will certainly find jobbers out there who will be willing
to compete head to head if they can buy the rubber cheap enough.
Ms. Cerilli:
The minister raises an interesting issue. One of the recommendations from the '91
report on used tires from the WRAP committee was to set up a fund to support
the development of a crumb rubber industry on the basis of proposals made by
private enterprise meeting with provincial criteria.
I would ask if that is happening,
and further to that if there is any of the money that is being generated from
the tires, if that is being used as seed money for industries, or if they have
to come with all of their capital costs covered and then just go from there
with getting the $2.50 from the tires that they collect. Is any of the fund going to seed money, or is
it going to go, as recommended, to a crumb rubber industry?
Mr. Cummings: I
do not question what the member is reading from that report, but the committee
also indicated that they did not believe the markets were very solid to date
for crumb rubber, and that was one of the things that caused a number of our
proposals that came in under the RFP to be rejected.
With the greatest of respect, I do
not disagree with the member's suggestion that some of this money can go into
research and development, but I have gradually come to the conclusion that
there are an awful lot of people who come through my office talking about
research and development who are more interested in the dollars that are
available than the product they may be able to produce. I have seen enough evidence of how the public
and ultimately the opposition might view placing of dollars that are held in
public trust into what might be questionable research. It would have to be a
pretty ironclad type of proposal before I would advocate taking large amounts
of monies out of the tire fund and putting it into market research, as an
example, or product research, because the industry in fact already has an awful
lot of projects underway.
The dollars, I believe, are better
spent to make sure that the tires are available for collection, to make sure
that those who are adequately recycling them are available to reap the benefits
in terms of a dollar amount that could be paid to supplement them. For that reason, I have been very cautious
about where the dollars have been spent.
I want to assure the member and the public that the dollars are still being
held.
Ms. Cerilli:
Just to save us this, I am not talking about research and
development. I am talking about someone
coming with a proven proposal so that they could have some money to cover their
costs initially to get it going.
Mr. Cummings: I
agree, and that is very tempting. Most
of the requests for proposals, the 14 RFP responses that we got, did involve
some level of government response in terms of over and above the $2.50 or
$3. They were interested in community
bonds or in the REDI program, I guess would be another approach that they would
have used, or loan guarantees or guaranteed supply of certain volumes of tires,
all of which amounted to a fairly significant commitment on the part of
government which I recommended against.
Ms. Cerilli:
Before I leave this area, can the minister just indicate the total
amount of money that has been collected from the tire tax since it was
initiated?
Mr. Cummings:
Approximately $2.2 million.
Ms. Cerilli: I
want to move on to talking a little bit about newspaper. Starting off in the same vein, I guess, this
is an area where we know that it is contributing a huge percentage to the waste
stream. Again, there does not seem to be
any responsibility of the two major newspapers in the province taking some
responsibility to see that the product that they are producing and selling does
not end up in the landfill. So I would
just ask the minister to clarify on that and tell me if there has been some
discussion with newspapers. I understand
that there is one small rural newspaper that has an agreement with a local
recycler where they are contributing to a program. Has anything like that been
discussed with the newspapers for the city here? Are we going to start seeing some movement in
this area?
(Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)
* (1500)
Mr. Cummings:
Again, this is one of those areas that has taken some time to evolve,
but I would like to indicate that there have been meetings over the last year
with the newspaper industry. They, obviously, want to have any of their
involvement limited in terms of cost.
They are trying to contain their costs, but we believe that the ability
to implement a program in this province is also going to be related to the
growth in market. We believe that growth
is now there. I am involved very closely
with negotiations with the newspaper industry today, over the past and future
number of weeks, to bring a program together.
The debate becomes very quickly what
nature of a system. Obviously, those who advocate depot systems also have to
look at what that means in terms of the quality of paper that comes out the
other end and the cost of operation relative to the value of the
newsprint. While we have not levied a
WRAP levy against newspapers to date, we have been in discussion with them
about that exact option.
Ms. Cerilli:
So can the minister summarize what their position is? What are they saying?
Mr. Cummings:
Well, I think my last line did summarize it. I have been in discussion and the department
has been in discussion with the newspaper people regarding the implementation
of a WRAP style levy. What the end of
those discussions will be or what format a program will take, I cannot answer.
Ms. Cerilli:
Have there been other discussions such as having money contributed to
some kind of deinking facility?
Mr. Cummings: That
is an option, but bear in mind that any facility would be probably associated
with the Abitibi plant, and the member is well aware of the discussion they
have been involved in, their financial viability. There is de‑inking equipment and
facilities going in at the Lakehead, but it would be advantageous to have
facilities here as well, and Abitibi has certainly been working to see what
avenues are open to them in that respect.
Ms. Cerilli:
Will they have to do things like report on sales, similar to what the
beverage containers are doing?
Mr. Cummings:
Implementation of the WRAP Act can be dealt with in the‑‑pardon
me, was the member referring to Abitibi or to the newspaper producers
themselves?
Ms. Cerilli:
We are talking about the newspapers companies.
Mr. Cummings:
The newspaper publishers?
Ms. Cerilli:
Yes.
Mr. Cummings:
If any levy were to be imposed, it would be based on their volumes and
they would have to report, yes.
Ms. Cerilli:
When we are looking at the entire WRAP program, why is it that newspaper
was not given a higher priority when it is 35 percent at least of the waste
stream? Why do we not see newspaper
reclamation farther along? How was it
arrived at that the other waste streams would receive higher priority?
Mr. Cummings:
We have, in fact, put a lot of effort into newspaper recycling. Interesting development, and this is not a
criticism so much as it is a reflection of the reality in the different
communities that we live in. There is a
very viable volunteer recycling community across rural Manitoba and including
Brandon. There is significant volunteer
work being done in the city as well, but this is also where the volumes of
newsprint and cardboard are. Any
increase in recycling capacity will be focused here in the city of Winnipeg.
I would indicate, as a matter of
fact, that the government has put a fair bit of support into getting more paper
into position for Abitibi, through Versatech and through the rural recycling
agencies. The results of that, I
believe, will become increasingly evident towards the middle of this summer.
Ms. Cerilli:
Maybe to summarize then what industries are operating in
Mr. Cummings: I
am not sure that I can, off the top of my head, respond completely. In working in the City of Winnipeg, it is a
partnership between the city‑‑the various waste streams have to be
recognized. The province has been
involved in providing some leadership and certainly the legislative framework
through the WRAP Act.
We have the City of Winnipeg
beginning to establish more depots. They
just announced their second depot a couple, three weeks ago. We have several independent curbsiders that are
now operating, the red box, green box and others, who are doing rather well as
a matter of fact.
I had the opportunity to tour a
plant last week. I am not sure of the
name that the company operates under. It
is owned by Sheldon Blank in the east‑central part of the city, putting
through 100 tonnes per day of used corrugate and other materials into roofing
paper. I believe it is in the old
Gateway Packers, in that part of the city at any rate.
I was tremendously impressed with
the work that he is doing. He is shipping material all over North America. Right now his order book is filled to 115
percent or more shipping into the southern States as a result of the hurricane
damage that occurred there, et cetera.
It is a very viable operation, run by very shrewd management. What they are taking is material that they
are able to acquire mainly for the cost of freight, mix it with some low‑grade
pulp, and they come out with a very good product.
That one and Versatech and other
small ones are primarily the ones that I am aware of, but I am sure there are
lots of others out there.
Ms. Cerilli:
How does the minister deal with the criticism? He refers to a number of these
entrepreneurial jobbers, I think you are referring to them as. The criticism is that especially in Winnipeg‑‑and
this might explain some of the slowness of response and not this volunteer
activity that you see in the rural areas. I think just the nature of a smaller
community is going to lend itself to that.
I think a lot of people in Winnipeg feel they know that there is over
some $15 million that is already going into waste management that we pay
through our taxes.
The criticism or the feeling
is: Why should we have to pay out money
to recycle, which is doing something that is honourable and responsible, and
not have that covered in the taxes that we are already paying for recycling or
for waste management and those that are not having any financial
responsibility? How does the minister
deal with that criticism?
Mr. Cummings: I
suppose one way of dealing with it is to pass a law that says the city of
* (1510)
I suppose that really at the bottom
of the question that the member asked is, what is the value of the recyclable
material? When you frame the scenario that the consumer is already paying
through their taxes and they resent having to pay a second time, you have
pointed out my dilemma or the dilemma of almost any other Environment minister
in this country; that is, it will require some additional dollars to get
recycling going at the level that we all want to see it at. There is an increased cost attached to
it. The way to deal with that is to get
the end value of the product up, and that is what the WRAP Act is designed to
do.
That is why I point to the tire levy
as being the simplest and, I believe in the long run, the most practical way of
increasing the reclamation of recyclable material without (a) having to
establish a large bureaucracy to manage it, or (b) having to have government
guarantees in place in order to make it work.
It is simply handled by a regulatory regime that allows the
entrepreneurs to come in and take advantage of the real value that is in the
product and have it subsidized, if you will, by the value that is added to it
through the levies that are collected and returned to those who adequately
recycle it. Newspapers and tires and aluminum and corrugate are all products
that their end use can be enhanced. The
real value that is in the product, however, should go a long way towards paying
for its recyclability.
So there is one question left that
is not quite fully answered, and that is what it costs to run the system. That is where very often the cost of
recycling becomes hard to handle. Large volumes decrease the cost per unit,
makes recycling actually much more practical in larger centres.
Nevertheless, in larger centres, the
population as a rule expects more of the curbside type of ability to recycle,
more availability; more people perhaps do not have availability to a
vehicle. In rural Manitoba you cannot
survive virtually without a vehicle in sparsely populated areas, so it is
easier for depot systems to be run. City
systems will not necessarily reflect that.
They may well reflect other ways, and we have to enhance the market and
the value of the product to make sure that it works.
Ms. Cerilli:
Well, especially when you talk about the cost of running the system,
could we not find a way of having their producer and the industry have more
responsibility for that cost and sharing in that cost? I mean, that is where I think people expect
that there should be some responsibility for industry in government.
Mr. Cummings:
The WRAP Act is designed to do that, product accountability. The stewardship model that we referred to is
essentially an implementation of the WRAP Act, but we must remember, no matter
how you cut it, that the consumer ends up paying the cost; even if it is buried
in the retail or the wholesale cost, the consumer will pay it. It is as simple a thing as the fact as when
we imposed the $3 levy on tires, the first thing that was raised was, what does
this do to cross‑border shopping?
You want a new set of tires and you
are on the Saskatchewan or the North Dakota border, would the consumer all of a
sudden buy their tires somewhere else, and the Province of Manitoba or the
taxpayer or the consumer in Manitoba would have ended up paying through other
means to have the tires recycled?
Three dollars in fact, to the best
of ability to determine, did not have an affect on that, but if you look to
Ontario, I would be interested to know why they removed their levy, frankly.
Ms. Cerilli: I
guess what I am looking at though is having the onus shift. I mean, I can appreciate that if you tried
something, for example, like starting to put a cost on the product that was
sold onto the producer, that would just be transferred to the consumer, but at
least that would put some onus for them to start putting some investment in
developing a system to collect and see that the waste product is going to be
distributed.
Are we looking at some of those
kinds of things for some of the other waste streams?
Mr. Cummings:
There are a number of models that reflect pretty much what the member is
talking about. The European model, as a
matter of fact, in some countries requires the manufacturer to take back the
packaging or shipping material that is attached to the product. I believe that has been tried in the West
Germany model‑‑very draconian, given the large distances we have to
deal with in this country. The fact that
we are dealing with 13 different jurisdictions makes that something that is
very difficult to deal with unless it were imposed at a national level.
The WRAP Act does give the ability
to make the industry do the things that you are talking about. An example would be whether or not oil
retailers be required to take back the used oil. Now that immediately raises the question of
whether Canada Safeway will sell oil, because they certainly‑‑or I
should not use a name. Let us just talk
in a generic sense. It could be any one
of the large grocery chains that sell oil from time to time as a special. Would we even want to require them to have an
oil barrel out in their parking lot to take back the used oil? I think it would become very discriminatory
in a big hurry.
Nevertheless, those are the type of
things that we can impose on an industry, but one of the things we are being
very cautious about is to make sure that the market is mature enough for the
industry to be able to deal with the product.
A newspaper is a perfect
example. It is not very long ago that
other jurisdictions, and even Winnipeg to some extent‑‑one of the
more difficult times I had in this office was about two and a half years
ago. I was informed that there were 36
trailer loads of newsprint in this city that nobody could find a home for, and
I was worried about where it was going to end up. I in fact made the comment that I did not want
to know where it ended up at that point, because the worst kind of thing that
can happen to a recycling‑‑I might have my numbers out a little
bit, but nevertheless the principle is correct that the worst thing that can
happen to a recycling program is all of a sudden have its numbers dry up, its
market disappear, because you have got the money tied up in collecting it and
no way of recovering it. The alternative
might well end up being dumping it in a landfill, while you could have done
that in the first place without collecting it.
Those are the kinds of things that
influence on how quickly these decisions move.
Ms. Cerilli: I
have asked the minister before why the hesitancy on instituting a deposit. Can the minister give some explanation? I mean, especially under beverage containers,
the MSDR has had a number of exemptions or extensions of their deadline for
meeting their targets. They are not
meeting their targets. Why, on any
product, is there the hesitancy on deposits, but specifically with beverages?
I have seen the latest report from
the beverage container association or beverage producers association. They think it is going to interfere with
their sales, but is that why the minister is hesitating or are there some other
reasons?
Mr. Cummings:
There are reasons that go far beyond that. I would have to indicate that there will be
no exemptions past the August 1 deadline.
One of the frustrating parts about the WRAP Act is that it does have a
mechanism in it that requires some consultation before the implementation of
regulations.
In the regulation of the beverage
container industry, we needed to know whether or not they could meet their
targets and give them adequate time to prove their numbers. One of the problems we ran into was soft
numbers. The numbers they shared with us
were not supported by the numbers that my department put together.
There were a number of things that
impact on this, containers going cross border, the lack of good supportable
knowledge about how many containers are being sold in the province. In other words, the big players in the
container industry could well indicate a certain number of aluminum cans being
returned, for example, but undoubtedly they are also getting the aluminum from
the jobbers, the short‑line drink sales in the province.
Jobbers is the wrong terms for them,
but without using brand names, the non‑main brand names of colas and
other drinks, their figures were difficult to collect and their volumes could
be added to the grosses and make them look better than what was really
occurring.
We now have a firm track through the
licensing process on all of the beverage containers and they are on
notice. In fact, penalties are being
amassed against them today for lack of ability to meet their targets.
* (1520)
Ms. Cerilli:
How about the pressure from
Mr. Cummings: I
have had a couple of meetings and I would like to point out I have a rather
amiable working relationship with the present Minister of Environment there,
the Honourable Berny Wiens. They are
putting significant pressure on us to follow their model on beverage containers.
But I have given him the same answer
that I just gave the member opposite that we are making a decision sometime
before the first of August, but we are looking at a number of approaches of
which will, if not implemented, mean that we will end up with deposits by the
first of August, but we have a wide range of options in front of us. Those options would enhance recycling more
than just beverage containers.
I guess that raises the question
that I have to put on the record, and I do not at all resent these types of
questions, but it is interesting that here we are spending a considerable
amount of time on recycling, and that is good, it is important. But in the overall mandate of the Department
of Environment, recycling, in fact, is a very, very small portion of our
mandate when we look at the larger environmental issues.
When we are trying to look at the
recycling of just beverage containers, I am trying to put it in the context of
all of the other materials out there that can be recycled, the amount of waste
that we are dealing with in our society.
The tires and beverage containers
are usually not balanced one against the other but the fact is they both end up
in the waste disposal ground. I do not
think it would take any mental giant to figure out which one takes up the most
space, and they are both very recyclable materials. It raises this whole issue about whether or
not we can also get a whole lot of other things accomplished at the same time
as we regulate beverage containers.
Ms. Cerilli:
How about the discussions that I understand you were having with the
grocery producers association? Can you
give me some sense of what happened with those discussions?
Mr. Cummings: I
will have to plead some reluctance in answering this question. We are still in discussions with the grocery
products manufacturers. We are still in
discussions with the newspaper people, and we are in the midst of regulating
the beverage container industry. If you
tie all three of those thoughts together you can very quickly realize that this
is a far reaching and very difficult discussion that can be put together around
all of these materials which are recyclable.
The average householder sees the
number of recyclables or potential recyclables that are available to be
reclaimed out of their household, and they want something done about it. Just dealing with one of those items in
isolation, one at a time, may be the end solution, but we are looking to see if
we can deal with more than just one at a time.
Ms. Cerilli:
Are you also looking at some of the larger changes, like trying to move
to more bulk to actually eliminate a lot of the small containers or what are
some of the things that you hope to accomplish?
Mr. Cummings: I
am almost certain that I would not, personally at least, want to move into the
regulation of that type of handling. On
the other hand, changes that would occur that would cost the industry if they
did not make some adjustment may well lead to the type of situation that you
are talking about.
The National Packaging Protocol was
agreed to a year ago which does reference these type of approaches. It does have a commitment from the industry
to reduce the volumes of their packaging and that will probably deal with the
issue in the long run more so than what we will do on a provincial level.
Ms. Cerilli:
One of the things that you said in response to a question I asked during
Question Period is that you thought there was going to be a chance that you
would exceed the targets that you had set for the year 2000, but I do not see
any indication for that. Even the State
of the Environment Report indicates that it does not seem like they are going
to meet the targets, so what is happening with the targets? How could the minister have said he thinks
that there is going to be a chance that they would exceed the targets?
Mr. Cummings:
Yes, and I can appreciate why the member would ask the question because
the report does indicate that we do not have a good method of tracking the
waste volumes. What we would need to do
is hire a consulting operation or find other means to perhaps continue work
with some of the work that Dr. Fenton started in order to be able to track
waste volumes here in the province, but we have a pretty good handle in a broad
sense of what is occurring.
If we have any success over the next
couple of years with tire reclamation, for example, there is a large volume
gone. If over the next couple of years
we have a better success with newsprint, there is a significant volume enhancement.
If we have increasing success with
separation of waste at landfills that is required under regulation today,
increasing amounts of corrugate will never even see the landfill. So we will I believe, through a combination
of things that are occurring in the province, coupled with what is happening at
the national level‑‑I guess I do put some emphasis on the second
part‑‑the National Packaging Protocol, when it was agreed to at the
national ministers' level, the industry was there. It is one of the few times, I am told, in
history where the industry and the national group of ministers got together and
made an announcement of goals that they intended to achieve.
The packaging industry, if you look
at the volumes that are being used in terms of packaging, even today you will
see that they are down from two years ago, certainly. I can point to something as simple as an
experience that I had where a relative of mine was considering purchasing a
particular type of household stacking washer‑and‑dryer unit and the
fact that the company would not ship it separately because they wish to ship it
with less packaging on it.
* (1530)
While it seems like an odd thing to
point to, you combine that plus the fact that industries, by and large, are
starting to take back their pallets, or they are finding markets for them that
were not there before, those kinds of things combine to make some pretty
dramatic reduction in tonnages. Saving
two newspapers is important, but it takes several of them to equal the weight
of one wooden pallet that may also be ending up in the waste stream as a result
of a purchase that was made by the same household. Combine all of those things together and I
think the goals are achievable.
Mr. Acting Chairperson, I have one
other piece of information. The 1991
packaging survey revealed that there was a 20 percent reduction from 1988 base,
so the reductions are ongoing.
Ms. Cerilli: I
guess I just think a lot of people would find it surprising that you would set
the targets and continue to set targets without having the mechanism to monitor
if you are meeting the targets. I think
that is a cause for concern, but I am not going to belabour that.
One of the other things that struck
me from the State of the Environment Report was a statistic that in the '70s,
1970, there were 540 kilograms of trash per person. In the '80s that had almost doubled. I wonder if there is some explanation of what
the jump was attributed to and if those are not the areas that we should be
targeting. What is that jump attributed
to?
Mr. Cummings: I
am going to have to think about that one for a minute, Mr. Acting
Chairperson. The only thing I could
point out is this is not just in Manitoba.
These are national trends. They will undoubtedly reflect‑‑those
may well be the Manitoba numbers, but they are similar to the national trends,
I guess, is what I am trying to say.
I think they may well reflect the
kind of throw‑away society that we have been part of. Just the way we live, our lifestyles have
changed dramatically in terms of whether or not we even grow a lot of our
produce or whether we today buy it.
There is not one of us in this Chamber, I do not think, that could point
to not having seen dramatic changes in our own lifetime, even if that should be
as short as 25 years, as to the amount of waste that can be produced.
Similarly, I would say, over the
last three or four years, we could also point to a more conscious approach on
the part of our own households on how we deal with it. One can point to the newspaper, the paper
end, as being one of the tremendous growth areas in this respect. Getting the corrugate and the newsprint will
be of great significance in terms of volume and weight.
Ms. Cerilli:
It seems to me that the minister is saying that he figures it is
packaging paper and cardboard packaging.
I would actually appreciate if I could have something from the
department on that sent to me, because I am curious to find out what that is. I appreciate that the minister may not have
that here.
One of the other things that I would
ask is with the harmonization of the diaper taxes, and that being done for
environmental reasons, do we know yet if that has had any effect on consumption
of disposable diapers? Have you had
contact with the industry to know if there is any effect on reduction of use of
disposable diapers?
Mr. Cummings: I
would not need to be in touch with the industry. I could find out from the tax department; I
suppose the revenues would reflect the volume.
As far as I know, the volume has not
been dramatically impacted. Certainly, I
have not seen evidence of it yet. It is
a consumer choice. I would have to
indicate, however, that even though it is a consumer choice, and I think four
or five years ago if I would have been asked, I would have adamantly denied
that I would ever be the minister who would support the taking away of the
exemption for sales tax on disposable diapers.
But the fact is that the large
measure of the public that I have been in contact with and the contacts that I
have received through my office, other than some very strong lobbying on the
part of the industry, have been positive.
As much as they recognized that, if they chose this lifestyle and it had
a requirement that used significant amounts of natural resources, it would be
reasonable to expect that they would pay a percentage, an increased percentage,
toward the protection of the environment.
I think we have gone a long way in
demonstrating that we have been able to put the money to use in terms of the
best general benefit to the environment.
The department has pointed out to me something that I overlooked in my
previous response.
There is a large amount of organic
yard waste that goes into landfills which is contributing. As our lawns got greener and greener, we sent
the clippings to the landfill. I think
we are seeing a reversal of that as well.
Yard clippings, leaves, branches and that sort of material mount to
upwards of 20 percent of the landfill in some cases, and it can be a lot higher
than that for particular seasons.
I would also indicate that there
likely was an increase in durable goods, the purchase of durable goods, which
meant that there was an increase in packaging and the disposal of the old
products that went into the landfills as well.
Ms. Cerilli: I
am glad to hear that the minister is getting some favourable calls. We have had some calls to our office about
the concern of the impact of the tax on people of low socioeconomic status.
I would ask the minister if there
has been any consultation, particularly since the Minister of Family Services
(Mr. Gilleshammer) is here, of having a diaper service claimable on welfare
claims? Because right now there is no
possibility or allowance for a diaper service to be claimed for welfare
recipients, but of course they do use their money to purchase disposable
diapers.
So there is a suggestion, and I am
wondering if that had been something that has been picked up on the government
side, and if there has been any discussion about that and if we can see that
change made?
Mr. Cummings:
Specifically I do not think I can respond to all aspects of the
question, but I would indicate that certainly has come to my attention that
there is a large number‑‑where health concerns‑‑of
rash, delicate skin, certain health conditions that would require diapering
with disposable diapers. That in fact
doctors will, or at least did, not very long ago, prescribe disposable diapers,
and they were paid for as a result of that prescription through other systems
in the social net.
So I guess that I also was raised in
a family where my siblings were considerably younger than me and disposable
diapers were not even thought of. I do
have to make the case that I believe, except under extreme circumstances, that
there is a choice.
Ms. Cerilli: I
must ask then for the total of revenue‑‑I am not going to belabour
it anymore‑‑from the diaper tax.
Mr. Cummings:
Something under $2 million. I
believe 1.8. I can get the exact figure,
but that is pretty close.
Ms. Cerilli: I
will deal a little bit with the other extreme that is being targeted, and that
is the liquor bottles with the tax there.
What is the revenue from the liquor bottles?
Mr. Cummings: I
can get the exact figure from last year's revenues but the revenues that go into
the Sustainable Development Fund are minus the cost of running the recycling
program that the Liquor Control Commission commits itself to, so I think the
figure is something like 1.2 minus 6 or 1.4 minus 600,000.
The net revenue to the Sustainable
Development Fund would be around the $600,000 as I recall. The amount of money that is attributed to
that tax however is more than that but the amount needed to run the recycling
program that the Liquor Commission is involved in is used out of those revenues
or is provided for out of those revenues.
Ms. Cerilli:
So I am not clear. How much money
are they charging to run the program? It
does not seem that it is being that effective yet. Their recovery is only 17 percent. Is that correct? I have a chart here. And why is it so much less than what is
happening with the beer bottles?
* (1540)
Mr. Cummings:
Beer bottles are not part of the system.
The beer industry runs its own system, and because of the high rate of
efficiency of the system, in excess of 95 percent or around 95 percent
consistently, the industry retains its own unreturned deposits as a result of
that. The Liquor Commission, I am told
that the figure has been found here, there is about $600,000 left for the
Sustainable Development Fund. We have
not found the original figure yet. The
contract is with the MSDR to pick up the glass and the plastic for the liquor
bottles, and they pay a fee to have it disposed of. In fact, there is an example of a product
that does not recover out of the value of itself the cost of recycling it. The cost does take up over half or three‑quarters
of the total liquor deposit tax.
Ms. Cerilli: I
would really like to see a financial breakdown of how then MSDR is using that
$600,000, but even the low amount of return rate, I think, is a problem right
now. Is MSDR responsible for all the‑‑I
do not think they are. I mean, I do not
visit liquor stores that often. I do not
know if there has been a lot of promotion of this. I have not heard a lot on the radio and the
television news, but it seems to me that we should be able to get that return
rate up substantially.
So two things then: What is the system that they are using, and
could I get some kind of a breakdown of how that $600,000 is being spent?
Mr. Cummings:
It is paid for on a per‑bottle basis, so therefore they are not
receiving any dollars that they do not earn.
The tax is based on 5 cents and 10 cents, as I recall, and I think the
cost of recycling‑‑it is a contract between the Liquor Commission
and MSDR. I do not think the figures are
confidential in any particular way, but I am told that MSDR, based on the
estimated volumes, charges about $600,000 to run their program through their
depot system.
The numbers could be higher. I do not think anyone disputes that. The fact is that glass has always been a
problem in terms of weight versus value for returning it, because the market
for crushed glass, particularly mixed glass, is not that great. In fact, in some cases the best use for mixed
crushed glass would be to put it under a sidewalk or something as fill, because
it simply is not necessarily that easy to recycle. The cost of energy is about the same to make
glass out of used glass as it is to make it from the original product. So it is not just a question of getting the
material out of the waste stream, it is a question of at what cost.
Ms. Cerilli:
The issue right now is what percentage of the deposit of 5 cents or 10
cents is MSDR getting per bottle? What
percentage of the deposit of 5 or 10 cents does MSDR receive for running the
system?
Mr. Cummings:
Roughly half would be the response.
One of the things that influences
this market is that the liquor industry does not reuse their glass, so it is
waste glass. I see someone from another
part of the chamber peering over his glasses at me. Certainly there has been some promotion
within the hotel industry to promote recovery.
They have gone a long way in terms of getting their glass back into the
MSDR system. It is the private consumer
who has not got the volume up.
Ms. Cerilli:
Well, I guess that gets at the issue we were dealing with before, where
the conditions could be put in place under the WRAP Act, where it became the
responsibility of the bottler to deal with the waste bottles. That to me seems to be the way that some of
these things could be going. So at least
they are then involved in the collection or the funding of the collection, but
again, it just seems that this has become an issue with the Liquor Control
Commission. What responsibility do the
bottlers of the liquor have in all of this?
Mr. Cummings:
If the member is advocating a deposit, then that would likely be tacked
on at the retail level of the value of the bottle. This program is being run within the existing
value of the product. It is not an add‑on
price.
Whether one consumes alcohol or not,
in terms of the hospitality industry and other concerns in this province,
liquor prices are about as high or higher here than most other jurisdictions
and in fact was impacting very negatively on our tourism industry. So they undertook to run the system within
the existing revenues without making it an add‑on. In other words, you did not buy a jug for
$18.30 plus another 15 cents deposit. It is contained within the existing price
scale.
Ms. Cerilli: I
will move on to dealing with the bill and regulations on landfill sites, and I
want to start off with trying to get some sense of how we are progressing with
identifying the regional landfill sites to comply with the regulations.
As I understand it, this is going to
work hand in hand with Bill 11 that has been tabled, that we already have the
regulation for no burning in landfills, but we still have all the
municipalities using the landfills that they have been up until that regulation
was passed.
So maybe the first question would
be: Have there been any charges laid in
violation? I know that there have been
violations. I have some photographs that
are actually not even in municipal landfills but are in LGDs' landfills, for
Local Government Districts.
So let us start off with: Have there been any enforcements? How is the
minister handling this? He has said that
there have been a lot of complaints from municipalities that they are not able
to deal with this. Are you looking at
moving towards the regional system because that will be easier to monitor? Give me some kind of an update.
* (1550)
Mr. Cummings:
There has been a fairly significant number of warning tickets that have
been handed out to municipalities. I
said from the start at the municipal conferences, and I think the member was
probably at at least the last two where I thought the questioning from the
municipal officials was rather polite. I
can tell you that some of the discussions that I have had as a result of implementing
these regulations has not been quite so polite.
Perhaps one has to be from the rural part of the province to appreciate
the sensitivity around this.
The City of Winnipeg has run quite
an acceptable landfill operation for the last several decades and operators are
accustomed to the regulations that are there and have dealt with them
appropriately. In rural Manitoba, that
is not necessarily the case. Well, I
have just been indicated there were 1,200 inspections made of various waste
disposal grounds last year, and there were some common offence notices issued
and several waste disposal grounds were closed.
In fact, I have something on my desk right now that indicates there is
probably a dozen that, if they do not close, they probably should be looking
towards alternate locations in one region of the province alone.
Now closing of a waste disposal
ground does not mean that it is polluting the ground necessarily or the air for
that matter. It may mean that it has simply reached the end of its useful
life. The space may be taken up. There may not be adequate fill available
anymore without some very expensive input.
It may mean that there are three or four waste disposal grounds within a
stone's throw of each other virtually, and that happens in lots of rural areas
too. A stone's throw, in this case, may
be within five or six miles.
Our goal was, through a reasonable
application of regulations, to encourage municipalities to reduce the number of
waste disposal grounds, to prioritize those grounds that were undoubtedly
inappropriately sited and either have been dealt with in some respect, moved or
closed. To that end, there has been a
fair bit of money put into feasibility studies.
There have been 20 feasibility studies that have been funded, and I
would say about half of those have been completed.
In that process, we have identified
a lot of problems in areas and regions.
A lot of those problems simply are geographic in terms of getting
communities to work together and recognizing, secondly, the costs that go with
that. We have had communities out there
that have spent at the most $3, $4, maybe $5 per capita on waste disposal who
now could be looking at $15, $20, $25.
In small municipalities, those are large dollars, relatively speaking,
depending on their tax base, one that they are very uneasy about moving
towards.
So we have taken an approach that
says that we want to work with them.
There has been a couple of examples of where people‑‑in one
case someone of considerable influence in the community was deliberately
lighting the fires in the waste disposal grounds and that person was ultimately
charged and faced, I think, a significant fine as I recall. So we have tried to be reasonable, but when
pushed to the wall we have no alternative but to choose to take a strong
position.
Whether or not we will move to
regional waste disposal in a large scale will partly depend on availability of
funding within the regions and whether or not the province is capable of adding
any additional support. I believe that
ultimately what we will have is a program that prioritizes the same as Water
Services Board prioritizes water projects.
There would be a limited amount of
dollars, obviously, that we could make available, but we would make them
available to the regions that have the most significant and pressing problems
to deal with in terms of regionalizing their waste disposal grounds, and I
would think that on the list of work that has already been done that we will
find some candidates. The question will
be whether or not we can find any dollars.
Those are very scarce.
Ms. Cerilli:
Well, I said I think that it is a problem as more and more of the
environmental costs for water treatment and landfill, especially as we become more
conscious of the problems, are going to be shifted or just left on the burden
of the municipalities which have the least ability to pay. Would the minister agree with me on that?
Mr. Cummings: I
would suggest that we are not shifting the responsibility. The municipalities are responsible for waste
disposal. What they resent, and I
understand their concern, is that we as society are imposing certain
regulations on them. The interesting
part about this is that I believe the municipalities are voluntarily now
beginning to respond because their own public is saying to them that these are
problems that have been pointed out, why are you not dealing with them?
The general resistance in the public
in rural Manitoba is much less than it used to be in dealing with these
matters. But I indicate very clearly
that there is a considerable difference between various communities across the
province and how they have dealt with this problem historically and how they
will deal with it over the next few years.
It is one that requires, I think, a fair bit of sensitivity on the part
of any provincial government.
The previous administration did not
move on regulating waste disposal grounds and did not have a history of having
taken very hard positions on either waste disposal grounds or lagoons. I have now inherited some of those
difficulties, and I can point to a number of examples across the province where
some of the problems have historically been in place for a number of years. I
am now‑‑this government is now responding to them but we are still
being criticized for being somewhat slow in responding. The fact is that we
have had to work with these jurisdictions. It does impact on their tax base
rather significantly.
Ms. Cerilli: I
would not disagree that these are long‑standing problems, but now that
the consciousness is changing, would the minister agree that the method of
payment should not be simply up to the municipalities to pay for the increased
costs of properly managing waste, that we have to come up with a way so that it
is not just the local ratepayers in the municipalities?
Mr. Cummings:
In a very broad sense the answer is no.
I disagree with that approach, because what we are talking about is the
waste of the individual households which cumulatively is the waste for the
community, and unless there are industries in there that are doing something to
impact on this, we all have a responsibility.
We just spent an hour talking about
recycling programs. That is the first
way to reduce an awful lot of the volume.
The second way is that the province has regulated an awful lot of the
hazardous materials that might have ended up in the waste disposal
grounds. While we cannot guarantee that
some of it is not inadvertently or intentionally getting into these grounds
even today, we know that by regulating it we are in a sense providing for an
insurance policy for the municipalities who are having problems with
potentially contaminating material getting dumped into their waste disposal
grounds.
So, yes, large regional approaches,
if there are dollars available, that would enhance the concept and communities
could get on with it a lot more quickly, but some of these other programs, I
have to say that the municipalities can find some very imaginative ways of dealing
with it. Those municipalities that stand
back and say that they need to have assistance are not getting on with the
job. Other municipalities who recognize
that they are very unlikely to get any assistance are finding some quite
imaginative ways to deal with it and are containing their costs at the same
time. That seems to me to be where our
best hope is, in that approach.
Ms. Cerilli:
What we are talking about here is putting into place safer
infrastructure. In some cases it is
going to be very expensive particularly if we expand this to not just dealing
with solid waste but start looking at sewage and water sources. Municipalities,
I think, are going to be faced with huge costs looming in the future. You are also looking at the fact that even if
we close all these poorly sited leaking landfills that we know are out there,
that is not going to solve the problem that they are still leaking, and there
are going to be, I think, costs for cleanup to be dealt with.
I would just ask if the minister
understands what I am saying and if he has any comments of how all of these
problem landfills are going to be dealt with once they are closed. I know that there are some that are going to
have to be properly contained once they are closed.
* (1600)
Mr. Cummings:
The member rolled lagoon systems into her comments just a moment ago,
and in my earlier question I was referring only to landfills. There are a number of examples out there where
the province has been quite involved with the improvement of the lagoon systems,
the SDI and a number of other Water Services Board projects that are out
there. The Water Services Board,
however, does not manage the landfill system, and those landfills that the
member references, there might be some out there that are a problem. Those will be dealt with one by one.
The cost of closing a landfill can
be greater or lesser depending on the terrain and what the potential for
leakage is, but closing the landfill can be reasonable or it can be quite
costly depending on the factors that are there.
Our regulators will just have to deal with them one at a time. This is not a carte blanche ordering of
closures. Each site will have its own
unique problems in terms of closing it, but remember that closing it does not
necessarily mean you have to go in and dig out the hot spots. You might well be able to cap it and consider
it adequately protected.
Ms. Cerilli:
Are there requirements under the legislation that there would have to be
staffing at the regional landfills?
Mr. Cummings: No,
landfills do not have to be manned.
Ms. Cerilli:
Are there many of these landfills that are existing now that have
individual schedules for compliance?
Mr. Cummings:
For what?
Ms. Cerilli:
For compliance with just the regulations.
Mr. Cummings:
Outstanding orders for compliance, was that the question? I do not think we have any orders that are
outstanding. There are a number of
permits that may expire, and whether or not they are permitted to operate for
another year, that might be what the member is referencing.
The ongoing decision point for some
of these landfills that may eventually be closed is that they will be operating
from year to year based on the conditions of the operation and what the plans
are for the community to develop another site.
Mrs. Carstairs: I have to say that, on the one hand, the
honourable minister made me feel a little bit guilty, so I think I am going to
return the favour.
First of all, he made me feel a
little bit guilty, I have to suggest, when he made the comment about the fact
that people were recycling more and more of their leaves and their
clippings. I drove out of my property
today at the lake, and my husband has a pile which must be about five and a
half feet high by about 30 feet wide filled with old tree trunks and branches
and goodness knows whatever to be picked up within the next couple of weeks.
So you made me feel guilty about
that, although I have to suggest we have only had the property less than two
years, and he is cleaning out probably a hundred years worth of deadfall. But now I am going to make you feel a little
guilty, Mr. Minister, because you made a statement which I am really going to
challenge, and that is that the use of disposable diapers is by choice.
I would like to suggest to you that it
is not for many women by choice, unless you want to add considerably to their
workweek, and in some cases, if you want to make them ineligible for the child
care arrangements which they have because most of the child care centres, run
through the auspices of the honourable minister, require disposable
diapers. They will not allow parents to
bring cloth diapers because they cannot attribute the cloth diaper to that
individual child.
The disposable diaper does not
matter. You do not return it, so it is not
material as to whether a child gets the right disposable diaper, but you cannot
do that with cloth diapers. So it is not
a matter of choice if, in fact, they have a child in a child care centre.
In addition, it is not by choice for
many women who are single parent mothers and living on social assistance,
because they do not have accessible to them washers and dryers. The cost to access that washer and dryer is
more expensive than the cost of the disposable diaper. So it is not by choice.
I would question a ministry, all of
which its senior people are made up of men and most of whom have not washed and
dried the diapers nor have they changed very many of them, making a policy with
respect to a disposable diaper when they do not make that choice with respect
to beverage legislation containers and liquor control bottles to the same
degree as they make this one with regard to disposable diapers.
I would like an explanation for that
failure to recognize the distaff side of this debate.
Mr. Cummings: I
knew I was going to get into trouble over this one, Mr. Acting
Chairperson. I think we have to remind
ourselves, however, that this was not the imposition of a tax so much as it was
the removal of an exemption.
I am reminded that there is more
than one of us around here who has changed diapers and dealt with it, but that
is, I hope, not the make or break part of this argument. The question is simply whether or not a
material that many people pointed to as a consumer of a fair bit of natural
resources could contribute in some way towards the regulation and the
rehabilitation of the environment in other ways.
I would not even attempt to argue
that there may be some who feel they have no choice and, in fact, may well be
able to demonstrate that. Nevertheless,
I have said, and I will continue to support the concept based on the responses
that I have had, the vast majority of the public out there has responded
positively in terms of this item, and they recognize that if we are going to
deal with environmental issues there has to be some cost‑and‑effect
relationship.
We have tried to do that in a rather
pure sense. It is sometimes very
difficult to defend in terms of how the budget is struck. Nevertheless, the tire revenues and even any
proposals under beverage and under the WRAP regulations, we are attempting to
make sure that the linkage to the revenue and the ultimate use of the dollars
is something that is clearly traceable to the benefit of the environment,
rather than do what has occurred in some other jurisdictions where the dollars
have a tendency to disappear into general revenues, a la tire tax in Ontario or
the environment levy that is on beverage containers in Saskatchewan.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Acting Chairperson, can the minister tell
me why the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission‑‑and I realize he is
not responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission‑‑why
they do not advertise better their returnable portion? I have not seen any signs or any overt
attraction to bringing back the bottle, which is not the case with beer
vendors.
Mr. Cummings:
There is an advertising program.
I do not use their facilities all that often. I am not sure what advertising is in the
outlets, but I know that I can point to several billboards, and I would be
mistaken if they are no longer there. But the slogan was: One good return deserves another. The Main Street bridge, not far from here,
down by The Forks, had a sign up. I
believe there was one on Portage, so there has been a program. How effective it has been, I suppose you
might choose to question given the percentage of returns. Nevertheless, it is a lot better than it was
before there was no system.
Mrs. Carstairs: Well, obviously anything is better than
nothing, but we have used the Liquor Control Commission in the past for signage
for a variety of things on their bags.
It is inconsequential, the cost to printing something on a bag. I have never yet seen a bag from the Liquor
Control Commission which says, the bottle contained herein may be returned. Perhaps the minister would like to take that
up with his cabinet colleague to see if they could not do a similar type of
program, because I think there are a great many Manitobans who still do not
know that they can return a liquor bottle and get some money back in return.
* (1610)
Mr. Cummings:
That is a good suggestion, one which I would be prepared to follow up
on.
I would only say that the whole
return and recycling issue has been kept somewhat in limbo as we deal with a couple
of components of it, the beverage container industry is not directly related to
the liquor industry in terms of the nature of their sales. Nevertheless, their containers have a lot of
parallels.
Some of these decisions have been
held up on the basis of getting a little bit better grip on actual volumes and
the values that can be recovered out of some of the materials. We will be moving in this area and I will
take the advice.
Mrs. Carstairs: I am in full agreement with the minister that
when we tax, whether it is $3 a tire, or whatever it is, that that inevitably
finds its way back to the consumer, the idea that the corporation is somehow or
other going to pick up this magical cost is just that. It is magical. If the corporate entity has to produce an
item and it costs a certain amount of money, then that plus a reasonable margin
of profit, and in some cases a large margin of profit, is passed on to the
consumer.
It is also interesting to me that we
have not yet moved on beverage deposit initiatives. I assume that the minister is still looking
at alternatives to what is going on in other provinces. I would like to know why he is looking at
other alternatives.
I mean, it is clear that beverage
bottles are being returned to other provinces at a considerably higher rate
than we are getting in the province of Manitoba. Why is he looking at alternatives when they
seem to have a system that is working?
Mr. Cummings:
The rate of return on aluminum in other jurisdictions is relatively
high, quite high in
We saw in Ontario that the beverage
container industry switched out of aluminum into, I believe, a steel version of
a container, in order to‑‑I cannot explain their rationale, but
they did, I am told. All of these
actions have combined to make me a little gun‑shy until we have all of
the information in front of us. The
August 1 deadline, however, is firm. The
indications are that there will be large sums of money that the beverage container
industry will be liable for by the 1st of August.
In the long run I want much more
than just aluminum beverage containers to be brought in to a system for
recovery. Plastic containers, the pop
bottles, a very good case can be made for the reduction and amount of energy
that is needed to produce them. Glass is a very high consumer of energy, but
there is one jurisdiction, P.E.I., that has legislated that all products shall
be in returnable glass. On the other
hand, P.E.I. is 123,000 people or something like that at the most. It is not even as big as a quarter of the
city of Winnipeg, and they have very good control over what goes on on the
island.
Saskatchewan, when they legislated
aluminum cans, closed down a bottling line overnight as a result of that type
of intervention into the system.
When we make our decision, we recognize
some very significant ramifications. By
setting clear deadlines and getting input from all parts of the industry, I
believe that we will come up with the best solution for this province.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Acting Chair, I am quite prepared to pass
this section, but the critic for the other party is not here. I do not know whether we want to pass it and
leave it open if she wants to come back.
My understanding is that she is finished. Do you want to just move on to
Financial and Admin Services, and then you can pass it after that?
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rose): 1.(c) Waste Reduction and Prevention Planning
(1) Salaries $167,000‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $86,800‑‑pass.
1.(d) Financial and Administrative
Services (1) Salaries $746,600.
Mrs. Carstairs: This seems to take up a very large portion of
the minister's department. It also has a
large chunk on Communication. Since this
is Financial and Administrative Services, why do they need $60,000 worth of
communication?
Mr. Cummings:
Postage, courier costs and central telephone are part of that or almost
all of it, I guess.
Mrs. Carstairs: The minister says it is part of it. Is there anything else?
Mr. Cummings: I
am sorry. It is all of it.
Mrs. Carstairs: All right.
In the Activity Identification of this particular department, it
mentions the general administrative support services include vehicle co‑ordination,
parking administration. What is that?
Mr. Cummings:
We pay for our portion of the central government parking administration
which is part of what that refers to, and under there, is the co‑ordination
of some 60 vehicles, some of which are pooled.
Mrs. Carstairs: I guess the reason it stuck out to me was because
I thought this was all now part of the centralized service that is being run
out of Government Services.
Mr. Cummings:
It is the paid parking, and it is administered centrally, but we are
responsible for the area. As you can
appreciate, the Fort Osborne Complex, there is a large parking area associated
with it.
Mrs. Carstairs: Well, if I am so bold, it seems to me that
this particular page of identification perhaps needs a rewrite and made a
little bit more into the 1990s. It
really looks a little obsolete for the Department of Environment to spend a
part of their budgetary line talking about vehicle co‑ordination and
parking administration, but it is just a hint to staff about something they may
want to do before next year.
I will pass to the critic. We are into Finance and Administrative, with
permission for you to go back if you want.
Ms. Cerilli:
Is this the section that does the annual report?
Mr. Cummings:
Yes, and I am told that administration of this section also includes the
resource centre and the computer services for our department.
* (1620)
Ms. Cerilli: I
thought it was kind of odd and I was concerned that page 23 of the annual
report, which lists all the inspections that were done and the number of
complaints, does not have a column that lists results or the compliance. Why is that?
Mr. Cummings:
Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am told that is a change that is being made
and it will be included next year.
Ms. Cerilli:
That is a pretty big oversight. I
mean, that to me is what people would be interested in. If you are going to look at the number of
inspections and complaints, you want to know what the compliance is. I mean, this is what we always hear complaints
about is that we have a poor record of enforcement, and it seems now you do not
want to show us what it is, so then looking at‑‑╒interjectionσ Well,
we would like to know what not only the compliance would be but then, on the
same chart, the consequences.
I would just recommend in the future
that that would be included in the report and some explanation of why that was
not this year. Was it a conscious
decision? How could that be just an
oversight?
Mr. Cummings:
The member indicates that she feels that there is a large number of
people out there wondering about whether or not fines, successes in court are
being achieved. Interestingly enough, I
get a very high rate of complaint coming into my office about officers being on
the ball, being out working with municipalities, private operators, and the
department inspections are very often viewed with some considerable trepidation
by the public. I do not think that quite
jibes with what the member would like to represent them as.
One of the problems that we have in
presenting this figure is the fact that there are a lot of prosecutions that
are underway that are not completed, they may have uncertain conclusions, and
the conclusions may not be what we would predict. That leads to some difficulty as to how it is
portrayed and how it is seen to be followed up.
It is certainly not an attempt to create any kind of an illusion.
It would be perfectly fair to say,
however, that we take a lot of prosecutions forward, and they are probably more
expeditiously dealt with in the long run if they had been given a ticket and
had the cleanups mandated as opposed to simply spending all of our time in
court or tying up the judicial system. I
have to point out that in terms of accomplishing our goal which is the
protection of the environment, that we might well consider the fact that the
Department of Justice, when they are dealing with a number of other rather
difficult and, I would say, important issues that they have to wrestle with,
the prosecution of abuse offenders as an example, that sometimes we have to vie
for prosecutors' time the same as other departments do. We push forward with getting the clean‑ups
done as much as we push for large dollars' worth of fines.
Ms. Cerilli: I
did not want to get into the issue of enforcement too much now; I just wanted
to make the point about the annual report omitting this. But with the issue of enforcement we do not
tell other criminals we are going to try and see why you are in violation of
the law. We just do not do that. It is only that that happens when we are
dealing with environmental crimes.
Mr. Cummings:
Have you never had a warning on a speeding ticket?
Ms. Cerilli: I
think that is a lot of difference though between a speeding ticket and some of
the kinds of things that are happening in the province in terms of hazardous
waste and leaking lagoons and all the rest of it.
I appreciate that the point has been
taken. I did not get really an
explanation of why it was left out this year, why there is no column that deals
with compliance and results? So I
appreciate an answer for that, and then we will move on.
Mr. Cummings: I
think I have essentially answered it.
There was no particular reason for it not to be included other than the
answer that I gave about being a little difficult to categorize everything.
The Environment Act, I would like to
remind my critics, is not necessarily a criminal statute. Very often defence for those that we take to
court is that they made best efforts.
Very often you are trying to prosecute where there has been a genuine
accident, that the fact that they made best efforts to avoid it is a defence
for them in court. I cannot change that.
So our directors have to make a bit
of a judgment call, and I have not had any reason to question their judgment
that there are some of these actions where their efforts are better spent in
the areas that I described.
I would have to point out, however,
through an example in Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation efforts this
year, that the farm supply people in my area were absolutely apoplectic this
year because the RCMP began to enforce the speed at which some of the anhydrous
is being transported and the equipment that was on some of the anhydrous wagons
that were on the road.
When they went to court they did not
get a simple ticket. They ended up getting a summons to court and ended up with
fines like $200 for speeding pulling a pressurized vessel. So I am not sure that those kinds of fines‑‑in
fact, I am sure they are not included in the lists that you have got here, but
those are the kind of things that are happening out there.
It is much the same as when you look
at RCMP enforcement of speeding. Very
often they have to concentrate on certain areas for awhile to get the public to
get the message. That happens under The
Environment Act and The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportion Act as well.
Ms. Cerilli:
People want to know these things.
I would be concerned if there were fines that are not included in the
annual report. You know, I turn over the
page to page 24, and it looks like there is only one information charge which
is the highest charge, and there are all these warnings, 433 warnings. In this section, why is the annual report not
more detailed and not more accurate? People
want to know. People want accountability
in this area.
(Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting
Chairperson, in the Chair)
Mr. Cummings: I
came across a note here from our previous day in Estimates, and I am reminded
that the courts ultimately have the final say in terms of, what you might well
be interested in, how many cases we took forward.
Very often, we are somewhat
surprised by the results that we receive in courts even believing that we have
a legitimate case that is being taken forward.
For example, an illegal discharge of sewage not very long ago netted a
$1,500 fine but, at the same time, in the end, it is the Department of Justice
prosecutor‑‑and I am not trying to pass the buck here‑‑but
in the end it is not the four gentlemen in front of us or any of their section
that would make the decision. It is a
decision of Justice after we present them with the facts as to whether or not
this goes forward.
Ms. Cerilli:
Maybe what we need to see is some kind of program similar to what we
have proposed to educate our judiciary about racism or about violence. Should we have some kind of a program like
that to educate our judiciary about the seriousness and the whole system of
environmental infractions? Is that
something that has ever been discussed, especially if, as the minister is
saying, there is sometimes concern in the department that there is not more
serious enforcement levied through the courts?
* (1630)
Mr. Cummings: I
would think from time to time that we have expressed some frustration upon what
certain cases that we thought should be prosecuted were not. On the other hand, it requires some fair bit
of skill on the part of the environment officers and the people in our
department to make sure that they have all of the important aspects of any
charge properly organized and verified.
Secondly, as I said before, the act
is not necessarily set up as a criminal act, a criminal statute, but one which
gives us tremendous latitude in terms of enforcing cleanup. I have given examples before, I will not
waste time on them now, but we have been able to impose some very significant
cleanup costs and have not received very much credit for it.
It seems like questions such as the
critic is asking and others only feel that justice is being served if there is
a fine attached to it. But I can tell
you there are a number of examples where a fine could easily be achieved, but
the cleanup might take forever if you could not get the co‑operation, or
the cleanup might only be accomplished by having the department go in and spend
the money and then try and collect that money.
So there is a bit of a balance here
and I suppose you can question our judgment if you wish, but we believe we are
accomplishing our goals.
Ms. Cerilli:
Well, fining for the cost of cleanup is one strategy, but we can get
into this more, I think, when we deal with the next section, the enforcement
section in the department.
I just wanted to ask with respect to
the finance and administration services, I understand that there is some
consideration of amalgamating the various departments or a few departments of
this branch. Is that correct, and how
would that cost saving affect the department?
Would it be lost, or would we be able to hang onto that money and have
it appropriated to another part of the department?
Mr. Cummings:
If Financial and Administrative Services are amalgamated, of course,
that was the aspect that government has been very conscious of, as to whether
or not there are some savings that could be achieved, but it should be pointed
out that it is in fact only three personnel in this department that would be
impacted.
Ms. Cerilli:
How would that work? It seems
here there are 19 salaries that‑‑
Mr. Cummings:
Three people in personnel.
Ms. Cerilli:
Oh, so personnel services is the only one that is being looked at to be
amalgamated. It is not the entire
service of financing.
Mr. Cummings:
That is correct. One should, I
think, look at this in the sense that government is looking in a broad sense as
to whether or not there are any efficiencies that could be achieved in this
area. Similarly, a few years ago,
questions were always raised about whether or not there are functions in one
department that can be performed on behalf of another, and we should not become
too compartmentalized. We should be
looking for areas of overlap and co‑operation because, in the long run,
it is the deductions off your pay cheque and mine and everyone else's in this
room that pays for this. We are expected
to be efficient.
Ms. Cerilli: I
want to ask some questions about The Freedom of Information Act as it has been
applied in this department and, first of all, just the number of requests. I would think that in the environment area,
there would be a number of requests for information. I know that I get calls of concern about
this, so the number of requests and who deals with the freedom of information
co‑ordination for the department.
Mr. Cummings:
The co‑ordinator is Wolf Boehm, right here. He informs me that he has had about 15
requests on average, year over year.
Ms. Cerilli:
Since it is only 15, can I get some indication of what those have been?
Mr. Cummings:
We can provide a list. I recall
that there were a number of requests around Domtar files. We get ongoing requests from people who want
background on some particular file, perhaps if they are being put under a
departmental order or something. I
occasionally get those types of requests.
There was a request on Bristol as well, and Palliser. Generally speaking, however, we find that we
do not have a problem responding to most of the requests that come in.
Ms. Cerilli:
Can people have access to raw test result data for water quality tests
and things like that?
Mr. Cummings:
If it is our data, the answer is yes.
There are times, I suppose, when we have data on file that is not
ours. We are privy to other
information. That does not mean it is
information that is damaging in some respect; it just means it is information
that we cannot verify.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): 1.(d) Financial and Administrative Services
(1) Salaries $746,600‑‑pass; 1.(d)(2) Other Expenditures $188,500‑‑pass.
Item 2.(a) Environmental Operations
(1) Salaries $3,598,300.
Ms. Cerilli: I
want to start off with back on the discussion of enforcement. One of the things talked about in the reports
is that there is a new enforcement policy, and this was referenced when I
raised the issue of $9,600 of fines in the State of the Environment Report.
Can the minister explain what is new
about the enforcement policy?
Mr. Cummings: I
guess the adjective "new" was what I was trying to get straight. The fact is that new refers to the fact that
it has formalized and written down and some modifications, I suppose, but it
was formalized and written down as a result of a committee that worked about
two years, two and a half years ago, on this project, including representatives
of the department obviously, representatives of Justice, and Environment
Council were represented at the table as well.
It seems to me that as I recall
reading the results of their work, it was what I would refer as a practical
approach to enforcement, given that we deal with every structure from
individual one‑person operations to large corporate responsibilities,
that it would practical and I felt reflected the best approach to dealing with
our responsibilities.
Ms. Cerilli:
Well, I will start off with reading from the State of the Environment
Report. "Fines collected by
Manitoba Environment"‑‑and I appreciate that fines are not
always the way to go, that there could be some situations, but I think that we
have to start looking at following the regulations as they exist‑‑"under
the Public Health Act, Environment Act, and Dangerous Goods Act"‑‑so
this is not even just The Environment Act‑‑is $9,631‑‑"an
indication of the need for Manitoba's Environment's new enforcement
policy. Although high fines do not
necessarily mean that the environment is better off, at least they serve as a
deterrent to those who act without regard for the environment."
So that references some kind of new
enforcement policy, and I want the minister to put any changes that are made or
new documentation of policy on the record for us to have some explanation of
what is the enforcement policy that is used, the procedure.
* (1640)
Mr. Cummings: We
will table our written enforcement policy, so you can have a copy of it. You can decide if you think it is correct or
otherwise. I will remind the member that
when we start trying to add up numbers in terms of dollars collected, that the
courts set the amount and sometimes, in my opinion, it is surprisingly
low. But, nevertheless, that is a
decision of the courts, and that is very often why we levy a ticket as opposed
to going the full route to a court decision.
But a $350 ticket, as opposed to a
$450 fine which includes a fair bit of legal time and time in court, does
become unfortunately a bit of a trade‑off in terms of how enforcement is
carried forward.
But the member asked earlier, did
there need to be some sensitizing of the court system to the problems of
environment? I do not think that we have reached the stage where we believe
that the courts are blind or anything of that nature. There may well be, however, occasions where
very serious situations arise where the maximum fines that are allowed for in
the act will be used. It is the nature
of our system where the courts ultimately decide whether they are going to levy
at the lower end or the upper end of the limits that are expressed in the act.
I have no reason to believe that we
should be turning away from that. I am
informed that a minimum ticket for stubble burning could be $1,000. Now, a maximum is 50 times that, and it is
obviously very unlikely that a maximum is going to be imposed, but the range is
there intended to reflect the flagrant nature of the action. I guess I still have a high regard for the
courts and no desire to get into this debate much further in that respect.
Ms. Cerilli:
Well, there are a number of issues I would like to deal with. I will start off with the whole area of going
to court. Now, it seems, from what we
discussed earlier, there were 15 charges‑‑no‑‑how many
charges went to court last year?
Mr. Cummings:
Mr. Acting Chairperson, on the average, there are five cases taken
forward to court.
Ms. Cerilli:
Five. Who does the preparation
for court on those cases, and who actually goes to court? Are lawyers hired who represent the
department, who are those firms, or how does that work?
Mr. Cummings:
The Department of Justice.
Ms. Cerilli:
So the department staff then are making recommendations and briefing the
legal counsel from the Department of Justice.
Mr. Cummings:
That is correct. They would also
be there as witnesses.
Ms. Cerilli:
Even using the example of the five cases that went to court last year,
what are the considerations that the judges are making in giving these lower
fines or moving towards the lower end of the scale?
Mr. Cummings: I
think I would be a little bit on thin ice to pass my own comments against the
opinion of the judges after they have made a ruling on a case that we have
taken forward. I suspect that what they
have done is look at the seriousness and the lasting impacts of the cases that
were taken forward, but I really cannot add much more unless I have something
coming here.
An accused would be able to plead
"best efforts" and very often "best efforts" is something
that the courts listen to with some considerable interest, also the amount of
harm that resulted from the occurrence and the track record of the company or
the individual that is being taken forward.
(Madam Chairperson in the Chair)
Those would be the kind of things
that I assume that a judge‑‑we probably, also, I should indicate, I
guess, in our own defence, and I think I am entitled to that, is that we
probably do recommend many more prosecutions than Justice actually takes
forward. That is not to question their
judgment. It is simply that we have
looked at attempting to achieve higher fines for a number of these cases. Justice has indicated that they did not think
our case would be such that we would accomplish, necessarily, much more than we
would if we simply issue a ticket.
Ms. Cerilli:
What constitutes "best effort"? What usually constitutes "best
effort"?
Mr. Cummings: I
am not sure I can adequately respond to that question. I think we need to recognize how difficult it
is to bring irrefutable evidence on some of these environmental issues. That means there is a lot of judgment that is
exercised by, first of all, the Department of Justice and then the judges in
dealing with these issues.
Let us talk about a specific example
where a lagoon or effluent is being pumped out of a lagoon. We had a successful prosecution last year for
an operation that pumped effluent onto a field but neglected to manage the
system in as much as the pivot bogged down, pumped a lot of effluent into one
area, it ended up running directly into a river. It was negligent on their part to have not
continued to manage the system. The
damage was not permanent and lasting however, and the fine that was achieved
was under $1,000. It might have been
different in another jurisdiction but that is the balance the judge chose to
strike in that case.
* (1650)
Ms. Cerilli:
Are the considerations for "best effort" tended to be what was
in the capability in the given situation or‑‑this sounds like an
accident, it does not sound like the kind of situation that I would be
concerned over. I am more concerned
about, you know, the ongoing violation or excess of a licence. I think that accidents are something that is
different and if there can be negligence that is shown on a given situation, I
guess my concern would be just to understand what is considered when they are
trying to assess if someone had given their best effort.
Mr. Cummings: I
suppose, to begin with, I am using the wrong term. Due diligence would be the correct term that
would be used in a person's defence. I
suppose that an example might be where if historically a plant had been
licensed to operate at a certain level and it was found that was an
inappropriate level and the level was changed, whether or not they would be
fined for that previous discharge. There
are lots of situations where that occurs.
An example would be Domtar, which we
are dealing with right now. Domtar was not
illegally discharging when they operated on their site in Transcona. It was quite legal for them to eject their
waste into the ground water at that time.
They are not now being fined, because they are making best efforts to
come back. Even though they no longer own the site, they are complying with the
orders that we are now in a position to give them to come back and invest in
the cleanup of the soil. Goodness knows
the ground water will never be cleaned up, but the soil will be remediated if
they continue with the plans that they are on.
As a department, as a government, I
believe we are much better to accomplish the remediation of that soil for the
benefit of the community than we are to collect whatever fines we can collect
from the company and then have to pay for the cleanup ourselves. So that is the type of balance that is
struck, and I do not apologize for the process the department uses in any way,
because I believe that the end justifies the means in the type of results that
we are getting.
It is very hard in this type of
debate to provide you or anyone else with the confidence that would simply say
we could slap them with a lot more fines.
I suppose that there are more fines that could be levied, but we would
not necessarily be accomplishing some of the cleanups that we are today.
Ms. Cerilli:
The other thing that the minister referred to in his earlier comments
was the consideration that is given to the impacts in the environment to the
harm that has been done. Given of these
only five cases, what kind of assessment can be done and what kind of
assessment is done of the impact on the environment in preparation of going to
court?
Mr. Cummings: I
will attempt to answer the question as best I can, but I am not sure that you
will be satisfied because the nature of your question means that this could be
a pretty long discussion. First of all,
it can vary widely. We collect evidence
as best we can to take forward in court.
The guarantee, if you will, of the evidence that is being brought forward
does influence the decision that is handed down. I think that unless we want to get into a
debate of some of the niceties of law in the courtroom that what we are simply
talking about is the rules of evidence and procedure upon which the judge will then
make a decision.
Many of the effects that we see, I
suppose, are such as the one I just described a few minutes ago. It is not‑‑in that case there was
not, I do not think, even a demonstrated fish kill. So the damage was evident, but it was not lasting. I am talking about when the effluent was
pumped into a stream. The judge, no
doubt, looked at the gravity of the situation and decided how heavy the fine
should be as a result of that. There was
not a fish kill in that case, but there was negligence in allowing effluent to
get into a stream.
One of the problems the department
has in preparing their evidence is that they have to get there on time to have
the samples and the other things that are required in order to produce the
readings, the levels, if you will, for the evidence in court.
I personally have experienced a fair
bit of frustration over one or two lagoon discharges, because it is the kind of
thing that you can verbally say is terrible.
You can point out that bacterial loadings were high, but in a number of
cases if you check the effluent coming out of the lagoon and check it a half a
mile down whatever water course or ditch that it may be being discharged in,
you might well find that the bacterial load has gone up because agricultural
waste is in that ditch.
I do not think we need to think very
far along. The Dunnottar example is a
perfect one of where the discharge was inappropriate, everything was handled
wrong in terms of how the community handled it.
But in terms of assembling evidence, when one really began to examine
the evidence, we found out that the discharge was more polluted a half a mile
away from the lagoon than it was when it left the lagoon.
So those are the kinds of things
that create very odd situations in these cases, I think.
Ms. Cerilli:
This is an area where I think‑‑and I am trying to remember
the term that is used in legislation where the principle is applied where it is
likely to cause damage. I think that if
we are going to try and‑‑especially if it is in a case of emissions
in a workplace and we are talking about air emissions in a workplace. If we can show that there is likely to be an
adverse effect, then there would be considered to be a violation where we do
not have to get into proving, for example, that an individual is‑‑
An Honourable Member: Presumption of guilt?
Ms. Cerilli:
It is not a presumption of guilt, but we do not have to show, for
example, that someone is ill. If we
start looking at that kind of evidence, because with some of the‑‑especially
when you are getting into, like I was saying, with emissions in workplaces.
Mr. Cummings: I
will answer this as quickly as I can. I
think we are both on a little bit of thin ice in terms of trying to debate the
niceties of some of these procedures, but as I understand it, it is where a
reasonable person would assume, or would conclude, that it would cause harm to
do something, then that is a situation where what you are referring to would
probably apply. In other words, if a
reasonable person could conclude that to embark on this action would likely
cause harm, then that is an assumption we could proceed on.
Madam Chairperson: Order, please.
The hour being 5 p.m., I am leaving the Chair for private members' hour,
with the understanding that this committee will resume at 8 p.m. this evening.
Call in the Speaker.
* (1700)
IN SESSION
PRIVATE MEMBERS'
BUSINESS
Mr. Speaker:
The hour being 5 p.m., it is time for Private Members' Business.
PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS
Res. 29‑‑Preserving
Natural Habitat
Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the
honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie),
WHEREAS natural habitat in Manitoba,
representing many diverse ecosystems, has been destroyed and irreversibly
altered by development; and
WHEREAS less than 1 percent of the
original tall grass prairie habitat remains in the province of Manitoba; and
WHEREAS Manitoba is currently
committed to developing, or has already developed, more than 60 percent of its
area; and
WHEREAS the Premier of Manitoba has
stated that the long‑range goal of the government is to set aside and
protect a representative part of each of Manitoba's regions; and
WHEREAS only approximately 0.6
percent of the province is currently protected.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Natural Resources to live
up to the commitment of protecting current endangered areas within the
province; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly
urge the Manitoba government to consider striving to achieve the
recommendations of the World Wildlife Fund and fully protect a total of 12
percent of a representative sample of Manitoba land and water ecotypes.
Motion presented.
Mr. Clif Evans: It is my pleasure to be able to bring forth
this resolution today.
Mr. Speaker, what we are talking
about is a program that the World Wildlife Fund had indicated and had gone
through its process to urge jurisdictions across Canada, United States and
North America to preserve certain portions of the land within their
jurisdictions as natural habit to protect the ecotype systems and to protect
different areas that they or the jurisdictions feel should be protected; 12
percent is not an outlandish request. I
think it has been agreed by many that 12 percent protection be implemented
within the province of Manitoba.
I would say, Mr. Speaker, that it
started with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) himself indicating that this present
government would in fact do its utmost to preserve a 12 percent figure. As a matter of fact, a quote from the Premier
announced that Manitoba would be one of the first provinces to begin preserving
12 percent of its natural regions. He
goes on to say, although the 12 percent figure seems to be a small amount, he
said, it is sufficient because the endangered land is already owned by the
Crown or included in provincial or national parks.
Mr. Speaker, the Premier himself and
the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) have indicated that they are going
to strive to this goal. They are going
to put money into it, approximately $250,000 over some years. Now, three years later, we still only have
0.6 percent overall in preserving our natural habitat.
The program that the World Wildlife
Fund has indicated requires that 12 percent of Manitoba's ecosystems be
protected, but it must be full protection from development, and it must be
taken from all 12 natural regions of Manitoba which have been identified.
(Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair)
Mr. Acting Speaker, these identified
12 natural regions in Manitoba are: the
Northern Transition Forest, the Arctic Tundra, Hudson Bay Lowland, Precambrian
Boreal Forest, the Manitoba Lowlands, Aspen Oak Parklands, Western Uplands,
Souris Till Plain, Tall Grass Prairie, Turtle Mountain, Pembina Tiger Hills,
and Assiniboine Delta.
Mr. Acting Speaker, here we have 12
basic regions identified, not only by the government, but by the World Wildlife
Fund. What we have is a 12 percent
figure that nobody seems to be out to achieve.
We are waiting for basically some action, even if we were to go up a
level each year from the 0.6 percent that has been in place for quite a few
years. I would think that the provincial
government in place would do what they could to satisfy that 12 percent, at
least work at obtaining one to two, two to three, such and such, going up in
the scale.
We can say, Mr. Acting Speaker, that
I am sure we agree on this side, or anyone can agree, that achieving 12 percent
overnight is probably very difficult if not impossible to do. It is like anything. We have to deal with the system that we can
continue on a working basis, not only with the people, but to get this 12
percent figure within the light at the end of the tunnel.
Mr. Acting Speaker, if this
government was to work at that 12 percent on a scale, and taking into account
the identified natural regions that I have mentioned, there would probably be
more than the 12 percent that is required and requested. However, what we see now
is that the only protected area we have at present is the Atikaki Wilderness
Park in the Precambrian Boreal Forest region.
Again, this counts for only 0.6 percent of Manitoba's area.
When we are talking about 12 percent
as compared to 0.6 percent, there is quite a large gap that over the last three
years, since the commitment of this government and of the Premier, you would
think we would be achieving something, getting somewhere. Again, I am not saying that overnight, in a
one‑year period, we jump from 0.6 percent up to 2, 3 or 5 percent. But I feel if we took the program and looked
at the regions that we have, Mr. Acting Speaker, I think that 12 percent, we
could probably be at a point right now perhaps 25 percent of that, up to 3 or 4
percent. This 6 percent that we are
still today left with seems to me as a number or a percentage that the Minister
of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) cannot seem to get off, 0.6 percent.
* (1710)
He seems to like the number, and I
would think that we would like to see the minister and the government do what
they can to obtain the percentage that has been put in place, the 12
percent. Twelve percent had been
promised in 1990. Funding was promised
in 1990, and yet all we have is the same percentage of preserved habitat that
we had three years ago, perhaps the same habitat percentage that we have had
for years before. It is probably time
for government in place to react to the request and deal with it in more of a
leadership role than what they are doing.
I think, Mr. Acting Speaker, support
would probably be there in numbers for the government if they were to in fact
head towards the base that has been requested.
We here would again like to see the government, the Minister of Natural
Resources do what is necessary. The
minister talks about providing the land and coming up with the Natural
Resources Parks act. What do we see and
what have we seen? We have seen a
certain amount of development within the parks.
We have seen a certain amount of economic use within the parks. There has to be a cohesion between economic
development and preserving natural habitat.
I can appreciate the fact that not one or the other can be accomplished
overnight. But I certainly must say that
there has to be a certain amount of movement toward setting the goals and
setting them to a point where in fact we can reach something higher than 0.6
percent.
Mr. Acting Speaker, the other part
that I think is important that this government and jurisdictions throughout
should in fact do is educate the public when it comes to preservation. I think we are all aware of the fact that
there are a certain amount of problems that we have within our parks, within
our uninhabited regions as far as abuse on the system. I think we have to do that, we have to allow
the people to be able to be made aware of just exactly where the problem is and
what people in this province, in co‑operation with the government and the
Minister of Natural Resources, can do.
It does not seem as if that aspect
of preserving our habitat is being fulfilled as well as the nonfulfillment of
the government to obtain the 12 percent.
We hear talking and promises and funds being put up for it, but we see
no real specific action to obtaining any set goal for the preservation of our
natural habitat. I say that with the
grade that Manitoba received from the Endangered Spaces Campaign last fall, and
that was a D. That was the second worst
in Canada. You would think, in three
years' time, that this minister would do his utmost to be able to again bring
up that percentage, to be able again to perhaps not receive a D grade. I am sure the minister appreciates the fact
that a D grade, whether it be in preserving natural habitat or in school, would
be a grade that you would have to sit down and say‑‑
An Honourable Member: It depends on who is doing the marking.
Mr. Clif Evans: It depends on who does the marking. That is right, but still a D is a D, and a D,
Mr. Acting Speaker, is not something that we would like to see, on this side,
our province receiving. A D indicates a
lack of interest and a lack of effort.
Perhaps a D indicates the fact that the minister has the potential, that
the government‑‑
An Honourable Member: A D indicates determination.
Mr. Clif Evans: I do not think it means determination, Mr.
Acting Speaker. I think the Minister of
Natural Resources is not exactly within the determination. I think, with a D grade, the province and the
minister should seriously look at just what direction he should be taking with
protecting our endangered spaces and preserving our natural habitat.
Now, I know that the minister,
perhaps through his work in his department in bringing forth Bill 41, intends
to do something. We are not really
sure. We will have to see when the bill
is gone through and see whether in fact Bill 41 will help with the preservation
of our natural habitat and our endangered spaces, and we will see whether in
fact this minister will make every effort possible, and this government, to get
past that D mark, past that 0.6 percent and work himself up to 5 percent, 6
percent, work himself up to a C or C+ as far as grades go for the Endangered
Spaces Campaign that has graded this government and be graded within a section
that would be worthy to our province and its endangered spaces.
Mr. Acting Speaker, I would like to
also say that we would take the government more seriously, and I think much
more seriously, if we knew that the government was attacking the problem that
we have here in this province with natural habitat and preserving it, and we
would take the government more seriously if they worked towards a goal that
they had indicated in 1990 that they were going to do. The indications up to this point are saying
that there is nothing here to date that indicates that this government is
working for it. If we could see some
action taken, I think we could support the Minister of Natural Resources in his
endeavours to bring himself up on the scale of grading and percentage.
Mr. Acting Speaker, we would like
here on this side to get a commitment from the government, a full commitment
from the Minister of Natural Resources in achieving the 12 percent, and I would
say that we here on this side are trying and hoping that the government gives
us a commitment to do this and have that goal that the Premier and the Natural
Resources minister indicated would be there.
That is 12 percent and I have yet to see that. I hope this resolution is passed so we may be
able to work together on attaining 12 percent.
Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Acting Speaker, I just want to remind
honourable colleagues of the RESOLVED of this resolution.
That the Legislative Assembly of
Manitoba urge the Minister of Natural Resources to live up to the commitment of
protecting current endangered areas within the province; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this
Assembly urge the Manitoba government to consider striving to achieve the
recommendations of the World Wildlife Fund and fully protect a total of 12
percent of a representative sample of Manitoba land and water ecotypes.
This Minister of Natural Resources,
my Premier and my government support those views, so we have no difficulty in
supporting and voting for this resolution, Mr. Acting Speaker.
The resolution itself has some
problems to it‑‑well, no, actually we are not even going to amend
it. We are going to accept it as is,
because it is a straightforward resolution that simply underlines current
government policy and the policy of this minister.
Mr. Acting Speaker, let me remind
the honourable member‑‑he ought to be reminded because I do not
know whether he is fully cognizant of that commitment. That commitment is that we strive for this
goal by the year 2000.
Let me further tell him that to
achieve this goal‑‑he talks about the 0.6 percent that is
protected. That is nonsense. It is 40 or 50 percent, and you say it
yourself in your resolution. I doubt that, but you say in your second
WHEREAS: WHEREAS Manitoba is currently
committed to developing, or has already developed, some 60 percent of land
area.
What is the rest of the 40
percent? It is undeveloped. It is habitat. It is there.
So there is 40 percent that is there. ╒interjectionσ Let
me not fool with honourable words. I
know exactly what it is. What is being
asked for by the World Wildlife Fund and our commitment to the endangered
spaces is to legislate, by law, protect 12 percent of the land.
* (1720)
Now that takes a little bit more
doing. That means when we set out an
area that says that forever and a day there will not be a thousand jobs
generated in that land mass, there will be not money taken from that land mass
to support daycare or education or health care, or we will deny a future
Thompson nickel mine site and 8,000 jobs in that area. That is what we are talking about.
So this minister has to take that
seriously before we draw lines around huge sections of land that says that
forever and a day, and that is what the criteria is, there shall be no logging,
no mining, no commercial extraction of any kind. That is what we are talking about. That is a serious commitment, and we are
committed to doing it.
I hope, quite frankly, tomorrow
morning to be making a giant step in that direction by announcing major
progress within the development of the Churchill national park, and that will
take one whole Arctic Tundra region, that the member refers to in his speech
about the different geographic regions that are to be represented in this 12
percent, into that program.
One does not rewrite major
legislation overnight. It has taken a
considerable amount of discussion with the various users of our park
systems. We have had, just like you
undertook, Mr. Acting Speaker, during your tenure of the stewardship of the
department, strenuous and multipublic meeting hearings to develop land and
water strategy. A similar public meeting
process has been undertaken under the natural lands and parkland strategy
meetings under the aegis, if you like, of the round table in the sustainable
development process that has led to the point where I could introduce and
distribute today Bill 41, a major revision of the parkland act.
Now, I believe and I understand, as
it currently stands, even though we have some four million acres of Manitoba
designated as provincial parks, most all of them cannot be put into the
Endangered Spaces Program because they lack the legislative support. What we have introduced, what we have
distributed in the House just today, will enable us to significantly enroll
some of our parklands, I am not prepared to say how much, but some of it, into
the Endangered Spaces Program.
These are moves that, quite frankly,
I am proud of. These are moves that
underline our continuing commitment to this program.
We do not do this in haste, because
that is the very nature of the program, that is precisely what the criteria of
the World Wildlife Fund wants. They want
this land not just merely blessed with the good intentions of a particular
minister or government, they want legislative, law‑of‑the‑land
protection for this particular habitat.
Prior to doing that, any prudent government better take some time and a
great deal of discussion.
I will raise one particular point
the honourable member is familiar with, for instance, included in that listing
of different geographic regions in the province of Manitoba that should be
covered under the Endangered Spaces Program, the Manitoba Lowlands region.
I happen to think that Hecla
Provincial Park would be a good nominee for a piece of land that represents the
Manitoba Lowlands to be included in the Endangered Spaces Program, perhaps even
sometime in the future as a national park.
I do not know where the honourable member stands on that or not, but
there are others who will say, no, we do not want that, we want some other
area. They want theirs represented to me, that a good portion of the honourable
member's constituency, where he has some 800 independent loggers working,
should all be set aside and all those loggers should not be granted any more
permits, there should be no more logging done north of Fisher Branch, Riverton,
Arborg; all that country should be set aside in the Endangered Spaces Program.
Does the member support that? Those are the kinds of issues that I am faced
with. Does the member support that? Is the member prepared for me to stop issuing
any logging permits in his riding and set that land aside for endangered
spaces? Does he support that or does he
ask that this minister should take a little longer, take a bit of time and see
what options there are in terms of finding an appropriate representative of
Manitoba Lowlands for this classification?
Mr. Acting Speaker, this is the kind
of issue, these are the kinds of situations that the department and this
minister face in the designation of all these lands. I am hopeful, as many of us are hopeful, I am
excited about the potential development of a major, Manitoba's second national
park in the Cape Churchill area which will have the added component of having a
marine component to it which would house important beluga whale areas and the
polar bear denning areas, which would be an exciting step forward.
But nobody in this House expects me
to ride roughshod over aboriginal land entitlement claims involving any land in
our area. Nobody expects me to run
roughshod over the interests of the Mayor, Mr. Webber, in the community of
Churchill. Respectively, these take time and, if you follow the history of
development of national parks, whether they are in British Columbia or in
Saskatchewan or otherwise, generally a fair bit of time, because Parks Canada
want to negotiate and resolve issues before major pieces of real estate are
designated in this fashion because the knowledge is there that once it is so
designated, you do not turn that around very quickly, and of course that is the
whole purpose of so doing. We want to
preserve that in its wilderness form, in its genetic form, in its biological
diversification form for generations to come.
So, Mr. Acting Speaker, I urge my
colleagues to support this amendment.
This is a statement of a firm policy that my Premier, my government and
this minister support. I would simply
ask the ministers' support starting as early as tomorrow when a major step
forward will be taken into the addition to the Endangered Spaces Program with
respect to Churchill park.
Thank you very much, Mr. Acting
Speaker.
Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Acting Speaker, I would like to just say a
few words on this particular debate, and I would like to commend both members
that have spoken, and particularly I would like to commend the minister. I think it is interesting to see a minister
taking an opposition resolution, unamended, unnegotiated in any form and
accepting it. I think the minister is
putting himself under some pressure from the House by agreeing, for the sake of
the Assembly, to fully protect a total of 12 percent of a representative sample
of Manitoba land and water ecotypes.
Now I hear the minister saying that
he is prepared to be bound by such a resolution. He is prepared to see such a resolution come
to a vote in this House. Presumably that
means that he is prepared to support it.
It is unfortunate that the member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans),
and I realize why he did not do it‑‑I know it is in the nature of
drafting these resolutions that you have some limits on you. It is a shame that was not put into some kind
of time frame. It is a shame that the
minister was not put under a bit more constraint in terms of the time he would
give himself to make some of these decisions and move us in the direction of 12
percent, not 40 percent as the member has pointed out, but 12 percent of the
land mass.
I spend some time in Costa
Rica. It is a country that is
considerably poorer than Manitoba, and they have managed to do just that. They have managed to look very carefully at
the biodiversity that exists within their country and to protect 12 percent of
it. They have made some tough decisions. They have taken miners out of some
areas. They have protected areas in
which there is a great deal of commercial development down on the east
coast. They have said, we will forgo the
revenue from that commercial development because it is important to us to limit
ourselves in this way.
But I sympathize with the
minister. The minister makes some very
good points, particularly about areas that are currently developed. There are some very, very tough decisions and
decisions that will have a direct impact on people's livelihood. I am certain,
if the minister was moving not to protect some of the logging jobs that were
available, as an example, in some parts of the country, the resolutions that
would be coming across would be of a different order. So I appreciate the minister's sensitivity to
that, and in the context of that I appreciate his willingness to consider
nonetheless moving to protect 12 percent.
I think it is an interesting heritage for future Manitobans.
So I have no difficulty supporting
this, and I hope it will indeed achieve the support of this House within the
next half hour.
* (1730)
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): This resolution is very apropos and very
timely. We in this province since 1988
have had an unprecedented commitment to the preservation of wildlife habitat by
ministers of Natural Resources‑‑I might add yourself included, Mr.
Acting Speaker‑‑in order to preserve and protect the very best of
habitat in this province and to reclaim wildlife habitat to return varying
areas in agricultural southwestern Manitoba to a natural state of wildlife
habitat, so that ducks, deer, all manner of wildlife, birds, animals, can
return to a habitat which is quite close to the original habitat that this
country had just 150 short years ago.
But I have to say to you that the
current Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) has been exemplary in his
continuous commitment to not only making Manitoba probably the most responsible
province in the dominion of Canada in terms of efforts to add to habitat for
wildlife, but also in his leadership in terms of wetlands conservation, in
particular, because one of the keys to wetland conservation is knowledge.
Who must have the knowledge? Should it be the 57 members of this
Legislature who all understand‑‑well, I believe, I say this with
some accuracy, that we all understand the importance of wetlands, the
importance of their preservation, not only to waterfowl, but to the flora and
fauna that are so important to our wetlands and the contribution they can make
to environmental cleansing where‑‑and marshes are probably one of the
most ecologically sound restorers of clean water, if I can put it in that
dimension.
I read with interest some several
years ago an article that was in the publication put out by Ducks Unlimited
which talked about marshes and their ability to remove heavy metals, for
instance, by certain aquatic plant life which can then be harvested so that
heavy metals could come out of waste water.
It was really an ecosystem development that would lead the way in terms
of sewage disposal from our major cities and our smaller cities.
It was a very, very important‑‑and
my honourable friend the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) sort of scoffs
because in her purity she believes she is the only one that knows anything
about the environment. I would commend
that article to my honourable friend the member for Radisson even though it was
in a Ducks Unlimited magazine, and I know she hates Ducks Unlimited, but if she
would just read that article, she would understand that they are leaders in
preservation of wetlands and on natural habitat and ecology in North America.
Mr. Acting Speaker, I have to
congratulate my honourable friend the Minister of Natural Resources, because
his leadership ensured that Manitoba is first and foremost in terms of wildlife
habitat protection through the co‑operative efforts and the collaboration
that this province and the citizens of this province undertook with Ducks
Unlimited in establishing the new environmentally sound headquarters at Oak
Hammock Marsh.
One must remember that Oak Hammock
Marsh, in all its pristine beauty, was a drained swamp used for a target range
back in the '40s by the artillery. It
was only through the efforts of Ducks Unlimited that it is now the pristine
wetlands that the member for Radisson so applauds but yet does not want us to
show children in the province of Manitoba what you can do with the investment
of monies from committed environmentally friendly individuals across North
America. It is the investment of duck
hunters in Manitoba, in Canada, in North America that led to the funds that
created Oak Hammock Marsh as a prime example, Sir, of what you can do to
restore a barren once‑upon‑a‑time drained swamp to a wildlife
pristine environment that is a model for reclaiming of wetlands. It was that leadership that is going to have
our school children, with access to that kind of a facility, know the value of
contributing monies to wetlands preservation because they see it first‑hand
in one of the best laboratories you can take a school child to anywhere in
North America.
It is here in Manitoba within short
driving distance of this city, and it is going to be a tourist attraction
premier. The only people who are still
fighting it, of course, are the member for Radisson and all of those other
folks who believe that it was just not appropriate to be further discussed and
used as an educational centrepiece for what you can do with resource to restore
wetlands to help wildlife, to make the habitat of this province a better place
for all of the nesting fowl and wildlife that depend on marsh.
I know my honourable friend the
Minister of Natural Resources is going to be very much disappointed that I am
breaking a commitment he made to the House, that he would not amend this
resolution, that he would pass it unamended, but I cannot have that happen
because this Minister of Natural Resources deserves recognition for what he has
done to contribute. It is recognition
that is not just simply this House that I am asking to recognize; it has been
recognized in Washington D.C. Internationally, this man is recognized for his
contribution to habitat preservation and wildlife protection.
So I want to move, Mr. Acting
Speaker, seconded by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that this Resolution 29,
be amended by adding after the word "protected" the words:
and;
WHEREAS the Minister of Natural
Resources for the Province of Manitoba has been internationally recognized by
the North American Wildlife Congress for his superlative commitment to the
preservation of wetlands, in Washington, D.C., receiving recognition for his
outstanding contribution to wetland conservation.
The balance of the resolution, Sir,
can remain intact. This small amendment,
this small token of recognition for my honourable colleague the Minister of
Natural Resources, I think, is a most fitting addition to a fine resolution.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)
Motion presented.
Mr. Speaker:
The honourable minister's amendment is in order.
* (1740)
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, may I have a copy of that
resolution? We have been quite
accustomed to enduring, if I may use that word, self‑serving amendments
from this government.
Mr. Speaker, the member for
Pembina's (Mr. Orchard) desire to applaud his Minister of Natural Resources
(Mr. Enns) is commendable if perhaps misplaced.
The fact of the matter is that the Minister of Natural Resources needs
to be commended first of all for accepting with few reservations the resolution
introduced by the member for Lakeside.
The Minister of Natural Resources recognized that‑‑
An Honourable Member: You said
Mr. Storie:
Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, introduced by the member for Interlake (Mr.
Clif Evans). The fact of the matter is
they think alike on this issue so closely that I was obviously confused, the
member for Lakeside, the member of Interlake.
They think alike on this. The
Minister of Natural Resources, the member for Lakeside, accepted the
resolution.
Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter
is that many of the comments made by the member for Pembina reflect, I guess,
the work of the previous government.
When this government first took office in 1988, the first half a dozen
pieces of legislation that were passed, whether it was The Endangered Species
Act or the numerous, numerous wildlife and natural resources protection pieces
of legislation were charted and developed by the previous government.
The Minister of Natural Resources'
comments reflect I think a genuine concern for the preservation of natural
spaces in the province of Manitoba. Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Health, the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard), of
course, attempted to glorify, if you will, the role of the government in that
process. The role of the government,
with the exception on occasion of the Minister of Natural Resources, has been
abominable, and that includes the government's role in the now infamous Ducks
Unlimited fiasco. But we do want to
allow this issue and this resolution to come to a vote because we are not
afraid to have this particular ludicrous contribution from the member for Pembina
as part of the record, because for those people who are truly interested in
preserving wetlands and most of the work that the member referred to was done
as a result of the Habitat foundation and the work that was created under the
auspices of the previous government.
This resolution will I guess set the
record straight. We will certainly enjoy
sending this out to people who are genuinely concerned about preserving the
environment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker:
Is the House ready for the question?
The question before the House is the amendment on Resolution 29 as moved
by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Do members wish the amendment read into the record
again? No.
All those in favour of adopting the
amendment, please say yea.
Some Honourable Members: Yea.
Mr. Speaker:
All opposed, please say nay.
Some Honourable Members: Nay.
Mr. Speaker:
In my opinion, the Yeas have it.
An Honourable Member: On division.
Mr. Speaker:
On division.
Now the question before the House is
the resolution, as amended. Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
An Honourable Member: Agreed.
Mr. Speaker:
Agreed and so ordered.
Is it the will of the House to call
it six o'clock? [Agreed]. The hour being 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair with
the understanding that the House will reconvene at 8 p.m. in Committee of
Supply.